Lee Grierson said:

Complete an E&E BEng Honours - make sure its on here https://www.engc.org.uk/education-skills/course-search/accredited-course-search/ although for Chartered eventually you will need further learning.

I'm not sure the OP is still around (but let us know if you are Jack!) but just to lob in my usual bugbear - personally, as a PRA, I'd only advise worrying about accredited courses if you have a choice of two otherwise identical courses, one of which is accredited and one isn't. Generally I'd suggest putting that decision way below the others of where is it, does it cover the subjects I'm interested in, do the timings work for me, etc etc etc.

You don't need an accredited course to get CEng / IEng, it just makes the application process very very sightly easier - so marginal you wouldn't even notice. (To be honest when helping applicants with their applications I don't even bother checking now whether their degree was accredited or not - it makes no difference to how we write the application.) Far, far more important to find the course that suits you! 

Thanks,

Andy

Hi Andy, I thought you might mention the point about the relevance of accredited degrees where a person is seeking professional registration,  but my point is that basically most if not all Level 6 courses miss important areas in automation competency, so to make things as easy as possible, he might as well pick a degree that is accredited, because he will have to "top-up" anyway, assuming professional recognition is part of his development plan. "assume it is, with him being here" 

In fact another reason the PA7 apprenticeship standard had issues was because the MSc at Lancaster was NOT accredited by any PEI and that degree was as close to those automation competencies as anyone I could find, but IfATE would not allow an EPAO to be assigned to the apprenticeship standard to effectively pass any candidates due to that reason.

For me, fundamentally though, we need to make all these activities in building competency easier. I accept a level of flexibility enables diversity and inclusivity but for most of us we just want to the know the path not have 20 different paths because life's complicated enough.

Anyway If Jack is still about, finding the "course that suits you" will still require you to determine those domains or subject areas you feel will satisfy  those ichy feet towards suitable "academic study and further learning"  and basically you'll need to do more that any UK degree currently offers, which is why I direct you to ISA or those professional certificates from EIT in Industrial Automation and Control Systems (IACS) as a means of further learning and filling those core competency gaps. 

This implies that accreditation means very little, which would make one question why we bother with it at all.

Without some form of external validation how do professional bodies have any guarantee over the content or standard of a qualification? 

 11kv 

In answer to your first point, many universities do ask themselves exactly that! I believe my local university dropped out of the accreditation programme some years ago as the feedback from their graduates was that it wasn't adding any value.

In answer to your second point, and this is only my personal view (but from my experience as a PRA), CEng and IEng aren't typically based on what the applicant studied and learned in their degree (if they did one), but are based on what technical knowledge they've actually demonstrated in the workplace. The challenge for the assessors is determining that from a 5 page application and a 45 minute interview. If the applicant has qualifications they might help make that assessment easier - the assessors may not have to dig so deeply to find the evidence they need to demonstrate that the applicant technically understands their subject. However, particularly for CEng, since very very few applicants actually have the "exemplar" qualification of an accredited Masters, the assessors are really experienced at determining from the evidence presented to them whether the applicant understands their subject, and not having to base it on the qualification.

(And to me it also makes pragmatic sense - how many of us who've been working for 10-20 years, a typical point for applying for registration, are actually using more than a small fraction of what we learned in our degree?)

So on your second point, the answer is that if the degree is non-accredited, or if there is no degree, then the assessors will look for slightly (or for a non-graduate, much) more evidence that the candidate has gained appropriate technical knowledge, whether through their studies or work based. But it's a very small part of the application evidence, what's far more important than where they've got their knowledge from is whether they have demonstrated in their work that they have got it, and that they can demonstrate it. If I was to quantify it, I would suggest that at absolute worst case there may be an extra day's work for the applicant in adding additional evidence for Competence A. My point is that compared to potentially spending three-four years doing the "wrong" degree (one that you don't enjoy so much, or, as Lee puts very well, doesn't deliver the skills that employers want in the field you are interested in) it would be disproportionate for applicants to choose the accredited degree to save that one day of work on their application.

To turn this point around - if, in the worst case, we were to say that clearly excellent engineers are not allowed to be IEng / CEng because of a degree choice they made at the age of 17, irrespective of their track record since, I'd hope we'd agree that would be at best a bit daft.

I guess one caveat I would add is that if employers are looking for an accredited degree then it would be worth preferring one, that should be clear from a job search. I can't say I've ever come across them asking for it though.

 Lee Grierson 

Absolutely on your other points, I didn't intend that my very specific point should detract from those. 

Thanks,

Andy

I have been unable to give this the due attention it deserved because of a number of life events occurring all at the same time, thank you.

All of you. 

For stopping and taking the time to give your advice on this clearly layered topic. 

Merry Christmas too, hopefully you are all appreciating the break that we no doubt need.  

I will try and reply to each comment along the thread as written, the advice and in depth discussion will help to no end in trying to formulate an effective 5 year plan. From what I can gather the reality of the situation is that there are a myriad of things to try and all will include hard work, grit and vigilance. Well, that is how I got here in the first place. 

Accreditation, is and will always be the best and easiest way to try and streamline the interview and hiring process, however my main goal is the skills and the knowledge. Open University has been on the cards for good amount of time, but the key is the course and the content.

From the collective comments of you incredibly knowledgeable individuals, finding the correct course will take research of a serious kind. Almost with as much focus as course content perhaps  

Though this the industry at the end of the day. My motivational speaker would say 'Let's raise to the demand not lower the standard'. 

I am happy to travel to education providers and seek career advice from anyone I need to speak too. As far as my current employment commitments allow. 

Working alongside this HNC has been so incredibly hard, in the time of it starting I have developed Type 1 diabetes, moved 5 times in 3 years and faced the death of several people incredibly dear to me. Studying on top of it all has shown me what is possible and what isnt and I know how difficult it is. It has taken me an extra 2 years then intended to get near completion. I will finish the course in April (latest) with 8 modules at distinction. The intention after is to start a Maths A-Level (perhaps also physics AS), this is for no other reason then improving my maths competence and comfort in the subject. With this achieved I might more easily chew through the more tedious and potentially less relevant courses that may come up. 

Doing a degree apprenticeship seems a great route, the reality is the income stream dropping to a lower level as a result. This problem is enhanced even more with a full time degree. But I have ideas of free lance work in essentially component repair and maintenance (where skills and qualls will allow). I am more frequently being asked to help people with broken equipment essentially. 

On another note, Re: automation; I have been suprised at the delivery of my current HNC's contents, especially on PLC's which went into Boolean Algebra, hardware and processing fundamentals and a myriad of useful first principles but used a software package to practice ladder logic assignments that was equivalent to using a PC from 1995 to look after a modern day company server. It was distinctly lacking in context.

At least from my exposure to TIA, AB and B&R. The level of disconnect worried me and this is true of a number of skills that the HNC covered.

Not to mention I was just given the course content and left in the corner to chew my way through it, definitely taught me how to be more of an autodidact but combined with the life stresses previously mentioned, full time work at a fast paced company and managing a potentially deadly life long condition, the stress has been top tier. There is just no way to run through a problem in full through email alone and more often then not you are waiting 1-2 weeks for a single lecturers reply? Literature and YouTube have been a friend here. 

I know that I need an environment where I can quiz knowledgeable people who want to teach, wish to engage and don't see a lack of immediate comprehension as a complete annoyance (as is often the case with some work environments when the heat is on and project work is the priority).

Moreover, access to relevant and concurrent equipment with accompanying software packages? We all know the pains of licenses. Student licenses in the realm of PLCs doesn't seem easy to come by, I can understand educators struggling to afford them, but surely these providers are aware of potential users being students and higher education providers needing the software, perhaps someone could correct me otherwise. 

On a resent 18th Edition wiring regs course I was offered (informally) a role as an instructor in the companies Controls Courses (after asking about the course content for our companies 'up and comming' Controls staff). The company catered far basic automation skills and panel work for 'in industry' engineers and/or technicians. While being very honoured this response confused more then complimented and it has left me unsure of the next step. Especially after talking with the instructors who have their own in depth responses to this topic. 

There is alot to unpack here and I am so grateful for the time and deliberation you have spent in responding to my question, not to mention the points of your peers! It is engaging and a fantastic motivator.

This thread will assist no end. I can only apologise that it has been left with no reply for so long, let me address that from this point on. 

I wish you all the best. 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to all of you. 

 Gerard O'Neill (88a10928e0f715c5c41e7b957428dc68) Lisa Miles 

 Andy Millar 

 Chris Pearson  Roger Greenwood 11kv 

 AlexH 

 Lee Grierson 

Jack Goodwin said:

The intention after is to start a Maths A-Level (perhaps also physics AS), this is for no other reason then improving my maths competence and comfort in the subject. With this achieved I might more easily chew through the more tedious and potentially less relevant courses that may come up. 

Hi Jack, I would say stretch yourself with what ever degree course you go for!

Doing an A-Level in Maths and AS in Physics will "IMO" based on what I can determine from your acumen not be the best use of your time. 

Jack Goodwin said:

At least from my exposure to TIA, AB and B&R. The level of disconnect worried me and this is true of a number of skills that the HNC covered.

This is the affliction of all Level 6 / 7 courses out there  (degree / masters), there is no alignment what so ever with current products and their associated knowledge, except for maybe Salford Uni with its link to Siemens under the ACET apprenticeship standard.

More fundamentally you need to split your development into two distinct parts, formative and application.

With regards to formative this is where the degree and other short courses come in. Again I would highly recommend ISA self paced learning https://programs.isa.org/free-training 

You can get these cheaper with an ISA membership plus they offer significant discount at special times of the year, one coming up in the new year so check ISA. Self paced is something you should consider. your aim should be CAP based on the AutoBOK but that will be way down the line, probably after Chartered if that is also a goal.

OK self paced doesn't cater for peer interaction as a learning style but you can do that in other spaces like here and other forums , but you get that formative learning in the quickest possible time. 

For Controls as I have said the UK is lacking in this space. the best you'll get is some instrumentation courses with PLC's thrown in at likes of Roxby or TTE but you can cover this easily with ISA. But the formative stuff will never go into the detailed product knowledge, like with Siemens or Rockwell. 

You'll know as well as I do you can get TIA portal on a trial and if you want to keep using it, smash the VM and start again with a virtual controller. Studio 5000 (Rockwell) is not as easy to get as a trial. This is one of a few reasons why I believe Siemens is smashing in the PLC PAC sector. you may have to stump up the cash for a Studio licence with a virtual controller than supports comms to get a holistic overview.

Clearly if you want to get into DCS, ICSS etc space then the only option is to get a job commissioning with one of the big five Siemens, GE, ABB , Emerson , Honeywell. There is no way an SME will get their hands on that software or training but this would be the top in terms of controls engineering.

Also you need to consider those aspects of Tier 5 of the Automation Competency model, Network Infrastructure , Safety And Reliability & Cyber Security. ISA can help with some of those and you are even touching Safety And Reliability with 2382 / (18th Edition). I would definitely recommend 2396 (City and Guilds references) as well, in this space and that would also prepare you for degree type examinations and maintain your project competencies you built up in the HNC. Also don't forget CompEX for explosive atmospheres.  1-4 is the standard but you should cover and maintain Ex12 if possible.

There are plenty of resources out there to guide you on these short courses to top up the formative learning you are embarking on and by completing the research it will develop an important competence under UKSPEC E4.

All the best, I'm sure you'll get the development breaks you need in 2024

Lee   

Jack Goodwin said:

I was offered (informally) a role as an instructor in the companies Controls Courses (after asking about the course content for our companies 'up and comming' Controls staff). The company catered far basic automation skills and panel work for 'in industry' engineers and/or technicians. While being very honoured this response confused more then complimented and it has left me unsure of the next step. Especially after talking with the instructors who have their own in depth responses to this topic. 

Hi Jack,

Happy New Year 9slightly in advance ;) ), sounds form your post as if whichever route you choose it will be an exciting and interesting one!

Just a thought on this point, provided the course materials are well prepared this can actually work really well, although I'd hope the company would be making sure that you have an experienced instructor on hand to handle difficult questions. The point is that often the very best way to learn something is to have to explain it to someone else. I've had several experiences in my career where I've had to deliver training courses in subjects I didn't know a huge amount about - but by golly I did after I've delivered them! It's a regular technique we use to train staff up. BUT as said it only works if the training materials are really good and you do have a "phone a friend" on hand (or better still in the room with you which is what we do), otherwise of course it's not fair on you or the trainees.

Cheers,

Andy