CEng Application - Anybody with RECENT experience of the whole process?

One question I have about the application... Length... There is a note within career manager that says the printed application should not be more than 12 pages. If it is then the application could be returned to you.


At the moment I am trying to condense my career history section down by removing bits and detail that may not help me in showing that I meet a specific competency. I am fairly late in my career in applying for CEng (I graduated from my undergraduate degree in 2001). Therefore, I have been through a few jobs as a professional engineer between then and now.


I am not over the 12 page limit by a silly amount. Total printed pages is 17 pages and the career history section finishes on page 13. The remaining pages are listing my training, PRA comments, declaration, and other admin items.


How strict are the IET on this page limit?


I understand that some people may send in applications that are way over the top. However, if the application length does not go in to hundreds of pages would it not be reasonable for the IET assessors to read the application? Especially considering that each applicant will have paid more than £200 to submit the application.

Jason,


Please don't post a 17+ page application (I am talking abouot the section H: the meat of it).


I am a PRA, Assessor and Interviewer, and if I get such a lengthy application, I just don't read it. For all but a very small minority of candidates a section on career history and personal achievements of 2-3 pages is more than enough, exceptionally perhaps 4. Part of the process is the candidate communicating and a 17+ page dissertation on every thing they have ever done is not communicating. Nor does it show you grasp the process.


The appliocation is not everything you have every done, its appropriate evidence to demonstrate a particular competence.... when demonstrated .. its done.. move on


This is my fundamental issue with CM - its all about filling boxes in of every discrete thing and then churining it out in one file. It is the candidates job to take the assessors on a journey from their birth (as a new grad) to where they are... so how have you developed, what have you learned, when did you start taking greater responsibility, what value do you bring, where have you been innovative ?


Its not rocket science.


Simplify !!!!

I wrote my career history just over a year ago following all IET guidelines, including length 2-3 pages, and obtained a review and approval by an IET PRA. It was then rejected by my main supporter, an IMechE member, causing me to make a total rewrite before I could proceed. His comments encouragingly included "total dross". The lesson here is: the PRA's role is advisory whereas the supporters wield the power of their signature. You depend on your supporters more than anyone else, so my first recommendation is: get to know them and respect their expectations. Supporters who are IET members would probably be more "supportive" and I would recommend that route, but it was not an option for me. Although my application ended up weaker, by breaking with IET guidelines, it was ultimately successful. Having undertaken mentor training post-CEng, I now see the value of published guidelines as highly subjective. I suspect an IET mentor may be able to help you via a 1:1 dialogue and that is my second recommendation. The quality of understanding you gain through a good mentoring dialogue will be greater than anything that you can find online, even here. I believe the success of my application was based on that principle. See http://www.theiet.org/membership/career/mentoring/

I would recommend trying to contain the information in your application to the 12 page guideline as far as you are able to and focus your detail on your most recent roles and experiences with UK-SPEC in mind.  As Graham has said, the assessors are looking for detail on how you have achieved this competence as a career narrative of your personal story, so you should focus on your own personal responsibility and actions in each role.


If you feel that you would benefit from a second opinion then a mentor or professional registration advisor can help you at this stage; as a single point of contact I would suggest a PRA (www.theiet.org/advice) or if you feel it is more ongoing support you need, then a mentor may be better suited.  Either way, know that you are not alone in the application process and we are here to help.


I hope that you get a few more experiences from other members who have applied that may also help with some hints and tips; as someone on the staff that advises candidates my advice is always to read the guidance notes carefully and speak to a PRA before applying.


Regards


Kathryn

Thanks for the replies so far. Really glad I posted this now.


Graham - The career history section isn't 17 pages long. The 17 pages includes a blank page and some final pages with a lot of white space (generated out of Career Manager). Still it is longer than 12 pages total as recommended in the career manager note. Given that you are an assessor I will give extra weight to your comments about refusing to read lengthy application forms and make extra efforts to reduce the length of my career history before submitting. You may well end up being one of my assessors and I don't want to waste £200 or so of my money


My initial version (11 pages total) was reviewed by a PRA and I was told that I needed to include more detail. As an example, I had listed development testing as one of my usual project tasks. It was suggested that I expand on that and detail what that entails. I guess I went overboard after that comment. I selected a project from each employment and went in to a lot of detail about each step of the process - a short journal of the project almost. I will have to do another re-write and shorten it as much as possible while preserving enough detail to demonstrate the UK-SPEC competencies.


Geoffrey - May I ask how long your final application form was after the re-write?



Jason.

A PRA said more detail ... we may be talking cross purposes her.


I view an application are paerclip-pushing bits (name address, waffle etc) and the actual meat .. the bit that tells us all about your competence... its that I am talking about and if 11 pages was deemed too short then I would disagree with the PRA advice.


Aside from a very small handful of cases, overwhelmingly between 2 and 4 pages is more than enough properly constructed... and thats the point... CM does not allow that


If your concerned then happy if you send me a copy of where you are to look over.


I may sound like 'Mr grumpy' but communication is a skill.. and part of that is to consider your audience. Let me ask you a question. If you were interviewing a candidate and they had 10, 15 20+ pages of detailed career history in front of you, honestly, would you have time to read it, would you actually be able to make use of it in a 45 min interview ? The answer is no to both (if your honest), so why do you expect different from volunteer assessors ?


You are selling yourself, your career, your successes, your failures (and the learning therin)... take us on a journy.. but keep our interest

Hi,
I am also currently applying for CEng status and only have 2 pages for the career history section. I was slightly concerned that this would not be enough but my PRA seems to think it's concise and to the point.
It is encouraging to hear that the concensus is 2-4 pages.

Neil

Mark Plant:
...The key was ensuring that the information was concise, to the point and clearly satisfied the requirements of the Engineering Councils requirements....
I used the presentation to further demonstrate my experience and welcomed questions during my presentation in order to make sure there was no ambiguity, this also meant that my presentation time was extended. ...
...I did feel like I was being cross examined a little which did make me feel slightly uncomfortable (I was a last minute cancellation appointment so I had little time to prepare).

Excellent points ....

 - clear and concise: an absolute must. No one has time for waffle and its part of communication

- The presentation is the candidates opportunity to take total charge of the interview. A good presentation on a suitable project can dominate all proceedings..... take note all.. its not a career history but an actual definable, deliverable piece of technical work

- It should not be a cross examination, but I do accept at times it may feel that way... but thats because the candidate never took charge in the presentation. Sometimes, when the application is weak or sloppy and the presentation not great or inappropriate, all the interviewers can do is explore as widely as possible to give the candidate the best possible chance to shine.


.. It is always about preparation.... know  your application, be confident about what your presenting and be clear (and honest) about weaknesses ... there are never any trick questions and no interviewer I have ever interviewed with has tried to trip anyone up, but always rather try and help over the line