Is it a career advantage to be a Protestant?

What is his source of data? His assertion may just be reflective of the underlying population; see 
http://news.gallup.com/poll/224642/2017-update-americans-religion.aspx with older Americans identifying as more religious as they age. see http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/religious-tradition/by/age-distribution/

You may be right, David, but I have also noted, at least in Britain, that I have not become more religious nor increased my knowledge of the bible as I have grown older, but the younger people are, the less they seem to know about religion. I think it is therefore indicative not of people becoming more religious but of society trending towards being less religious. If you want something a bit more definite than my observations, books written by P G Wodehouse, who started writing in the early part of the 20th Century, often make reference to biblical events with the obvious assumption that the reader will understand the reference (which does not mean he was religious as such, as he also makes reference to Classical mythology and history with the same assumption - another loss to present society).

Alasdair

Working on the basis that there is always some truth in stereotypes there is the expression 'Protestant work ethic'. I have always understood that to mean honesty, integrity and conscientiousness, characteristics that would seem to be desirable from the point of view of customers, suppliers and fellow workers. Not so good for 'get rich quick merchants'.


Those individuals that I have known with a strong Protestant faith often reflected long and hard over actions that they had taken or where about to take, very much taking individual responsibility and realising that they (ultimately?) would be held to account. Perhaps those of other faiths or none are happy to take their guidance and absolution from their fellow man?


The answer to the original question is probably down to the fact that organisations recruit in their own image, 'if your face fits' etc.Protestants succeed where Protestants have succeeded.


In the UK context the chocolate makers Cadbury, Fry and Rowntree were all Quakers. Sadly they are now just brand names, should they have stuck to their religious principles?

Andy,

With regard to Scotland, at least in the central belt where there is more polarisation, it used to be similar to Northern Ireland in some industries where if you were protestant you could progress (particularly if a member of the Orange Order) while if you were Catholic the lack of progression was down to not being employed in the first place. Thankfully this is not something I have experienced (I am not a Catholic, just against discrimination) and, as far as I am aware, there was never the violence simmering just under the surface as there was in NI, at least not in living memory.

With regard to the religious beliefs of colleagues, in my previous role as a manager I have in some circumstances asked staff about their religious observances, but this is more to do with making sure I don't suggest something that would be inappropriate. For example, one of the company recommendations was that the manager should take a new employee for lunch on their first day to make sure things were starting well - I had an employee wearing a Hijab start, so I had a brief conversation with her and avoided actually taking her for lunch as it was Ramadan, which she was observing. These conversations had no disadvantageous effect on the employees but helped prevent me from inadvertently suggesting something which might have not been appropriate according to their beliefs.

Alasdair

I have never personally encountered any overt religious bias in a UK work-place, although inevitably people bring their personal beliefs enthusiasms and prejudices with them to work. I was aware of but not directly involved in, a situation where someone in Scotland felt that they had suffered disadvantage on sectarian grounds, but there wasn’t any clear evidence to substantiate it. Clearly this is highly sensitive territory , with significant potential for ill-feeling. People affiliate to different groups for many reasons, but I hope that anyone affiliating to this IET community is respectful of others and “blind” to anyone else’s religious faith (if any), gender, ethnicity etc.

 

The history of UK Professional Institutions as Learned Societies or “clubs”, naturally leads to arguments that those in control at any point in time “favour their own kind” over “others” and we have extensively debated that. When I was trying to understand why the legacy one of our “greats” Thomas Parker had become forgotten, it became apparent that at the time of his death in 1915 our institution was very “martial”. Whereas he was “The embodiment of a self-improving working-class man, he attended the Church of the Saviour of the acclaimed preacher George Dawson and went to lectures at the Birmingham and Midland Institute.” (Prof Carl Chinn). His acquaintance and admirer Lord Kelvin (William Thompson) was of similar religious persuasion.

 

As James has highlighted, the “Protestant Work Ethic” was clearly an important driver in the development of Engineering and The Industrial Revolution generally. However as he also helpfully sets out this was probably more about a set of values and behaviours rather  than theological differences. James’s highlighting of the Quakers drew me towards the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution when the Quaker Abraham Darby made a key contribution. At a time when the British and American perspectives were joined together, but when a distinctive American identity influenced by religious non-conformism was emerging. Only a generation earlier a bitter English Civil War had been fought at least partly on the grounds of religion.  My interest in the story below may be obvious, but it offers an example of different Christian denominations. Incidentally the aforementioned Thomas Parker was also an apprentice at the same works in the 1850s.       

 
The ironworks at Coalbrookdale were later to become famous: charcoal was the traditional fuel used in the smelting of iron, and in the early eighteenth century Abraham Darby pioneered the coke-smelting process which paved the way for the Industrial revolution. There may have been a smithy there in Henry VIII's time. In 1638 Sir Basil Brooke built a blast furnace there, and a forge was opened in 1642. A Catholic, he was prosecuted for recusancy in 1641-2, and imprisoned in Newgate. In 1643 (after the Civil War had begun) he was implicated in an alleged Royalist plot and was committed to the Tower.The Puritan regime sequestered the works and certain locals filled the resulting vacuum of authority with their own initiatives. Captains Henry Bowdler and Thomas Scott apparently obtained the iron works from the custody of the Parliamentarian forces; In 1649 a relative of Sir Basil's gained the lease and the social status quo was restored.

 

I’m not a historian, just interested, but perhaps there is an academic historian's angle around the advantages of Protestantism. There are those who would perhaps see it as contributing to The Enlightenment. I’m not aware of any research to establish any correlations between “work ethic” or types of thinking advantageous to the practice of engineering and different religious beliefs.  I have even argued in these forums about the evidence of correlation between different models of education and subsequent performance, which should be stronger. There is a different perspective based around Social Capital. For example I visited a friend recently who had relocated to a different area, he had benefited from his faith (developed in mid-life) offering him a ready-made social network via the local Church. 


Perhaps the trend being suggested is more related to common social values and networks in an American context, where religion is more overt than in Britain.  Rarely for example would a British Politician invoke religion, when it seems "required" in America.  


 

Roy Bowdler:


I’m not a historian, just interested, but perhaps there is an academic historian's angle around the advantages of Protestantism. 

but I hope that anyone affiliating to this IET community is respectful of others and “blind” to anyone else’s religious faith (if any), gender, ethnicity etc.

Oh, I am sure there will be people in this community who have their own strong prejudices, certainly in past times on these forums we have had what I would consider to be prejudiced comments relating to people's sex and their competence as engineers. I think it's important to keep in the open that prejudice a) exists, b) is exactly that - prejudice, and c) is unhelpful to put it very very mildly.


But I suspect (from what I understand of the US environment) the subject that spurred this thread is less about religous prejudice and more about a clique.


Fascinating topic. As Douglas Adams put : "To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem".


Cheers,


Andy

Confronting dogma and confronting prejudice are often two different problems. Dogma is - by definition - overt, prejudice tends to hide - typically pretending to be logic. Of course they can be the same thing, or at least dogma can justify prejudice. Oh, actually of course prejudice can produce dogma. Which then reinforces the prejudice....sorry, your point was???


That all said, dogma is not neccessarily mistaken. It depends on the level of expertise it starts from. Whereas prejudice - by definition - is always  "dislike, hostility, or unjust behaviour deriving from preconceived and unfounded opinions" (en.oxforddictionaries.com)


So yes. Or no. Delete as applicable.


Actually I did try to delete the second half of that post last night  (i.e the bit about prejudice) as not up to my usual standard, but just missed the 15 minute deadline. Still, I do stand by it.


Cheers,


Andy