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Where is the IET going?

RayC
The IET on Twitter is mostly about women in engineering and it appears we also have or have had an Executive member who represents the Association for Black and Minority Ethnic Engineers (AFBE-UK). Since when did we get away and direct our selves at subsections of the organization? There is no minorities that I am aware of in the IET at least not because of bias in any way shape of form. The same goes for women in engineering, no one is biased against them. Low numbers are because they dont want to be in engineering..

Where is the IET heading? It does not seem to be going in a place most of the member wold probably want or is it?
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Roy Bowdler:
    John

    I built carts from junk and ordered components from Maplin by mail order before it had branches. 




    I only found out about Maplin when I seen a catalogue for sale in WH Smiths, long before they had stores up and down the country!   But there was always Tandy.




    I know of one or two examples in employment where a man has felt unfairly “passed over” for a “token” female candidate and have lost count of the number of occasions where women have hit a glass ceiling, or suffered some disadvantage. 






    Both situations are to the detriment of the employing company.

     




    As I said in the previous post, not getting value is a perfectly valid reason to leave the IET. As is just “falling out of love” with the messaging and direction of travel. You have taken the trouble to voice your reasons.

     






    Not just with direction of travel but what are they providing for their members?   If I felt I was getting value for money from my membership fee would I have any questions over the IET also promoting women in engineering or STEM for school children?   In fact, I actually support efforts in both.   For gender I question the equality if you're favouring one over the other.   For STEM tokenism isn't enough, IET should be working at a higher level to ensure that sufficient is taught in schools.

     




    However “you can’t please all of the people all of the time” .       




    That's a dismissive acceptance that you've failed.   But look at all the comments above.   Has any one justified the membership fee?   Has any given a compelling reason for anybody to be in the IET?   Simple answer is no.


    The IET is so lost that it can't even justify why you should be a member.

     


  • 0

    Lisa Miles:




    Mark Tickner:

    .... you should have a Young Engineer of the Year alone.  




     

    That already exists Mark. Last years winner:  https://www.thebigbangfair.co.uk/news/media-and-press/press-releases/josh-mitchell-named-uk-young-engineer-of-the-year-2018/ 


    There are various other 'Engineer of the year' awards available globally but I believe (and  happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) that there is only one award to celebrate the achievements of young women in engineering and that is the IET / WES (Women's Engineering Society) Young Woman Engineer of the year awards. 


    I've always been very interested in the different and varied opinions around this particular award with some saying 'absolutely, it's great to recognise young women in the industry' and others saying 'it's a sexist award and should be scrapped'.


    If we shouldn't have the Young Woman Engineer of the year award then should there not be a Women in Engineering Society either? ?

     




    I'm going to poke my tongue out at you Lisa ?


    You are correct of course, but why pick out just females?  Why not specific awards and society's for the ethnic minorities (ok, some of those might exist)?  What is the IET's position on a trans-female/trans-male for entering the YWE competition (I don't expect you to answer that; and for the record I do know such an individual).


    The issue with positive discrimination is that it can disenfranchise.  Why should young males pick up engineering when it is promoted to females?  (I feel we should promote engineering to all)


    The issues of minorities and females in engineering is a serious one; if we have to trample over a few toes then so be it.  But I'd rather see it hand in hand with equality rather then creating barriers with any form of discrimination.

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Mark Tickner:


    What is the IET's position on a trans-female/trans-male for entering the YWE competition (I don't expect you to answer that; and for the record I do know such an individual).




     One of the best engineers the country has produced is Sophie Wilson.   The work she did at Acorn and being co-creator of the ARM processor is legendary.   And I believe she has also contributed to the Raspberry Pi too.   She is someone the IET should be celebrating.


    Otherwise, the reference to Young Engineer that's not an IET award though, is it?

  • 0
    Just for clarification, I’m not an IET Spokesperson, I am offering a personal opinion. I am currently an employee of the IET, which obviously involves an obligation of loyalty and respect for all members, but I have also been a paid up member since joining IEEIE in 1982.  If the IET doesn’t listen to it members then it has an even bigger problem, than not being able to explain its value proposition to some of them. 


    My general point is, that it is impossible to offer equal value to every member everywhere with every specialist interest.  Probably the largest group of members with a single shared characteristic is our Chartered Engineers and for many of them this is value enough. Some employers have policies of paying fees anyway. Apprentice and Student Membership is offered at a low cost, although that is also often picked up by the employer or university. For those with access to London, Savoy Place is a superb asset that members are rightly very proud of.  The IET has a very large paying membership , but also a concerning amount of “churn”, which indicates either some active dissatisfaction or apathy and unwillingness to pay. I have attended local network events in a number of locations and the age profile of attendees is generally high, so younger members who don’t go might complain that they are subsidising a “retired engineers club”. In fact almost everybody probably grumbles that they are paying for someone else    ?. What many members don’t realise is that some IET activities earn a profit, which helps to underpin charitable “not for profit” activities, like local events, prizes, bursaries, work with schools etc. Opinions about all of this are perfectly reasonable, but those decisions are “above my pay grade”.  I assume but wasn’t involved, that the Teacher Building decision was taken because it couldn’t pay its way.


    I agree about the principle of equal treatment on gender or other grounds and UK law requires this, unless you are a “private club” https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/panmure-is-latest-scottish-golf-club-to-admit-women-members-1-4736067   

    I also agree that we shouldn’t supress debate or condemn different critical perspectives. As I am frequently reminded by my wife, I don’t understand women    ?. If a prize were being proposed with limited eligibility then there is a perfectly reasonable discussion to be had about what purpose it is intended to serve. If that purpose is to encourage any group that is disadvantaged or underrepresented, then it’s a no brainer for me. If and when the disadvantage or underrepresentation disappears then the purpose is redundant.    

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Roy Bowdler:
     If the IET doesn’t listen to it members then it has an even bigger problem, than not being able to explain its value proposition to some of them. 




    Given the lack of replies from the IET to my questions raised then they sure do!   I'm not alone in my feelings that the IET have abandoned their members.

     




    My general point is, that it is impossible to offer equal value to every member everywhere with every specialist interest.  Probably the largest group of members with a single shared characteristic is our Chartered Engineers and for many of them this is value enough.




    Chartered status is the only reason I can think of why you'd want to be a member, and only because I believe it's a condition by the Engineering Council.





    For those with access to London, Savoy Place is a superb asset that members are rightly very proud of.




    And there is one of the problems.   IET just closed the Glasgow venue citing refurbishment costs of £ 200k whereas Savoy Place apparently just received a £ 30+ million makeover!   It's too London centric.





     In fact almost everybody probably grumbles that they are paying for someone else?.




    As I said in an above post I don't mind having some of my membership fee to support equality initiatives or STEM teaching, although how it's done I do disagree with, but to say that I'm not happy to pay in to the club isn't right.   I want to see some return to me for my membership.   It might sound to you selfish but it is my right to ask what do I get from membership?





      I assume but wasn’t involved, that the Teacher Building decision was taken because it couldn’t pay its way.




    The Teacher Building wasn't fully utilised as an outreach centre for engineers providing support services as a mini-Savoy Pl.   It really never fulfilled its potential, or served members as it should have.





    I agree about the principle of equal treatment on gender or other grounds and UK law requires this, unless you are a “private club” https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/panmure-is-latest-scottish-golf-club-to-admit-women-members-1-4736067   

    I also agree that we shouldn’t supress debate or condemn different critical perspectives.




    To stick with your golfing analogy.   You've got driving, chipping and putting.   Your driving is fine, your chipping is excellent, but your putting is abysmal.   So you decide that you're going to improve your putting.   You spend every effort on your putting, short putts, long putts, putts on a slope picking the right force and direction.   You spend months working just on your putting and at the end of the season no putt is beyond you.


    Now your driving is short, chipping misses it target and when you do reach the green your putting nails it.   And you wonder why your handicap has gone up not down?


    Which is why I'm being as careful as I can be not to say that the IET should stop trying to encourage woman in to engineering, or to have a prize for Young Women Engineer of the Year, but shouldn't do this at the exclusion of all others.   There has to be balance.   And balance is only gained through equality and ensuring that there are prizes for both genders.   Focus should be on engineering regardless of gender or other demographics, and then if you need to break down a little bit to recognise areas that are under-represented do so carefully as not to re-introduce inequality!   And the many traps therein.





    As I am frequently reminded by my wife, I don’t understand women?.




    What you do in your bedroom is your business.


     

     

  • 0
    John,


    I like the witty riposte!    ?

    To pursue the analogies, sometimes we just “fall out of love” after a long relationship. I loved golf but stopped playing about 10 years ago, due to the time demands in competition with other interests, but I haven’t sold the clubs, they clutter my shed on the basis that I might start again in retirement.  


    Some people have a purely transactional relationship with a professional body or trades union, paying what they have to, taking what they need and giving nothing, whilst others have a deeper emotional connection with something that becomes intrinsically bound up in their self-identity. The extent to which The IEE tapped into that deeper level of engagement among older members is nothing short of remarkable, as is the level of voluntary commitment that the IET continues to tap.  To my surprise I noticed that the first Chartered Engineer that I knew at work , gave it up recently having passed 80.  I hope it wasn’t health or financial.


    I seem to have gathered a number of “memberships” including a couple of “professional registrations” and if the financial impact is modest then why change. I treat then mostly as charitable donations. On a purely instrumental basis, a round of Golf , or outing to a Football or Rugby game can be more expensive than annual IET membership. I have certainly considered resigning from the IET, on issues of principle, but haven’t taken that ultimate step.


    As a member you could stand for election, or campaign via member representatives and/or IET senior management for what you want. However, If as I suspect you have just fallen out of love, then that wouldn’t appeal to you. At least these forums offer you the opportunity to express your reasons to a wider audience. Some other members will be sympathetic to aspects of your argument, and most are probably at least a little dissatisfied about something.


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Roy Bowdler:
    John,


    I like the witty riposte!    ?




    Good because I want to be sure you're not thinking I'm going on the attack as can easily be mistaken for when posting on internet forums!


    I prefer to inject a little bit of humour wherever I can. 





    but I haven’t sold the clubs, they clutter my shed on the basis that I might start again in retirement.  




    Not having played since I was a teenager with the clubs taking up space in the garage I finally threw them out!   I know that if I ever wanted to play again I could get better clubs easily.


    I still keep my Graham Weigh bicycle in the garage, which I rarely use but have no intention of disposing of, but now ride my carbon Trek one instead.   It's not even through nostalgic memories or anything but I know that perhaps in the future I'll ride it again for some reason.   It's a good bike, and I'll keep it mothballed for that time!


    But the Trek is awesome.   Every bit of effort you put in to pushing the pedals finds its way to the road.   It's a joy to ride.   But for some strange the top speed I've ever had is about 50mph, whereas the GW bike was 55mph.   Downhill of course!





    Some people have a purely transactional relationship with a professional body or trades union, paying what they have to, taking what they need and giving nothing, whilst others have a deeper emotional connection with something that becomes intrinsically bound up in their self-identity. 




    This is why I've kept my membership going for as long.   I realise that sometimes you may not get something from the IEE / IET but you want to see your profession promoted.   Alas, in my area we're not seeing that at all.   But you also want to be able to have some interaction from the IET, and there's a lack of events in my area.





    I have certainly considered resigning from the IET, on issues of principle, but haven’t taken that ultimate step.




    Going back to the golf analogy, if the club sold half its land for housing, turned the other half in to pitch & putt, and then closed the club house, would you still be a member?   It's still golf but is it enough golf?   That's really the key; is the IET still serving members the way they did when I joined the IEE?   I don't think they do, and the IEE still had problems even when they set up the Glasgow club house where they really didn't have a locker room for members!





    As a member you could stand for election, or campaign via member representatives and/or IET senior management for what you want. However, If as I suspect you have just fallen out of love, then that wouldn’t appeal to you. At least these forums offer you the opportunity to express your reasons to a wider audience. Some other members will be sympathetic to aspects of your argument, and most are probably at least a little dissatisfied about something.




    Currently very busy with my own business, writing apps in the evenings and weekends and watching my mother dying from a smoking related illness.   It's challenging.


    It is something that I'm keen on doing, helping the next generation.   I've passed CVs that I've received to other companies knowing they were a match, and thereby getting the graduate applicant a job.   I've helped businesses get over technical hurdles.   Even trying to help a teacher pick the right direction for electronics and programming.   Not for monetary return, but because I'm an engineer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0



     

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    There's a lot going on in this thread. For what it's worth, I'm an IET employee but not a spokesperson so this is all my own opinion / observation with the benefit of the inside view.


    Re bias: it's very easy to say there's "no bias against x group" when it's not happening to you. Bias can be very, very subtle and often unintended. It's not always the result of malicious prejudice, which is much easier to spot.


    Re IET events: it's simply not true that most events happen in and around London. I think this perception is driven by a handful of high profile events happening at Savoy Place, but I have the raw data and can demonstrate with ease that more happens outside of London than inside of it.


    Re trans women competing in YWE: Well, certainly they should be allowed to participate. Trans women are women and it's an award for women, not for "humans born female". I can see a lot of people use "woman" and "female" interchangeably and that's probably worth addressing and taking a bit more caution over. 


    Re awards more generally: There are already lots of awards open to everyone, so young men or anybody else have plenty of opportunities to participate.

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