Wind versus Coal

An interesting little side piece in E+T.  It will require 233  5 MW wind turbines to replace one 500 MW coal fired power station. This will occupy 55 square mile. This is also assuming quite a high capacity factor of nearly 43% but I will keep to the quoted numbers.

 

I am not sure if it is viable /sensible to build new coal fired power stations. The Chinese and the Indians certainly think that it is. So to look at the nuclear option:

To replace a 3 MW nuclear power plant with 2 EPR units, Hinkley point C or Sizewell C, will require 330 square miles to be filled with wind turbines (maybe more depending on the wake effect).

www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/wake-effect.html

This is more than twice the area of the Isle of Wight, not impossible but politically very difficult.

The more important question is the resources required. It is difficult to find numbers for the concrete and steel requirements for wind turbines. I do understand that this is affected by the ground conditions and foundation requirements however some number exist in this 2011 document.

pubs.usgs.gov/.../sir2011-5036.pdf

Table 5, page 12,  gives 100 tonnes of steel per MW and 400 tonnes of concrete per MW.  So to replace Hinkley Point C will, according to Kurt Cobb, require 6990 MW of wind turbines.

Steel 6990 * 100 tonnes  = 699 000 tonnes

Concrete 6990 * 400 tonnes = 2 796 000 tonnes.

The quoted figures for Hinkley Point C are:

Steel 280 000 tonnes

Concrete 3 000 000 tonnes.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/innovative-thinking/projects-innovation-drives-hinkley-point-c-16-01-2019/

https://chamberuk.com/chrisfayers/

So similar amounts of concrete and a lot less steel for Hinkley Point C. The NPP has an expected life span of 80 years, wind seems to be typically 20-25 years.

Hinkley Point C could also use a lot less materials, cost less and be on time if it was built somewhere other than the UK:

www.spectator.co.uk/.../

Is wind power a sensible use of our finite resources?

  • Wind, Solar, Wave/Tidal and Hydro are all well and good as alternatives to Coal, Gas Deisel and Nuclear but the renawables only work when there power source is in play.  Eg Turbines with no wind do not run the National grid.  The other thing to consider is the lack of redundancy.  As a casing point the Porth Wen Solar Farm in the north Anglesey which is owned by EDF Renewables had it's output reduced after storm Darragh.  Other factors to consider are or should be why we buy in power from abroad? 

    Renewalables on the National Grid need to be backed up by very large battery storage sites also connected to the grid this would allow us to store a certain amount of the energy on lets say a windy day to be used on a calm or windless night.  The battery storage would also allow for the turbines to be constantly working rather than what sometimes happens is they are turned off from generation as too much power at that time is being generated.  The same ethos applies to large scale solar PV farms

    People also need to look beyond the GreenWash for the lack of another word or cliche.  Yes the UK has reduced the amount of coal fired power stations but is real terms all that has happened is coal fired power has been replaced for gas powered

    What needs to happen in the UK is that Engineers need to drive the UK power policy not politicians.  The UK government needs to set up a department for energy that has more engineers working in there than administrators or politicians. 

  • Hello Mike:

    You can have the most rigid legal standards on products and services and have corrupt individuals at high levels certify defective products.

    As an example one of the companies I worked for, purchased/merged with a well known company (that I can not mention). I discovered that this purchased/merged  company had not been testing their product to the defined government standards. I quietly had to correct the problems as many high level personnel had transferred to my company. 

  • It seems crazy that laws have to be passed for common sense maintenance.

    Perhaps, but I suggest your faith in folk being 'good' without an official standard is not supported as it seems we need other laws for common sense driving, and common sense food standards and so on as well  - it prevents the good guys being undercut and put out of business by the cheats and fraudsters.

    And in terms of looking after your buildings the whole Rachman empire was built on being a 'slum landlord' and being very careful to avoid local authority controls and he was not really found out until after his death  - its not a new problem

    Mike

  • Hello Jon:

    Oh yes some of them knew what they were doing, but the rest (Councils) just wanted the cheapest possible option.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida   

  • Surely someone somewhere new the potential disaster?

  • Hello Jon:

    In the case of using flammable cladding on existing buildings, this was just a case of out and out fraud by the manufacturer and support from some Fire "Engineers".

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • It seems crazy that laws have to be passed for common sense maintenance. In the uk the flammable cladding debacle is an example of enviromental do gooders imposing their judgement upon previously well designed buildings.

    Politics and profit first. Engineering second.

    Dumb.

  • Hello Mike:

    There is currently a major problem in Florida (mainly in south Florida) with multi-story apartment buildings.

    After one condo collapsed a few years ago it was found to be due to a lack of building maintenance.

    The monthly fee paid by the apartment owners for general maintenance (grounds, swimming pool and common areas) was not enough to cover structural building maintenance (repair of roof and concrete columns being attacked by sea water). 

    The state passed a law that buildings over a certain age and height had to be inspected and problems identified and priced.

    The condo association then has to impose additional fees on the owners to fix these problems.

    I hear that some condos owners now have outstanding bills for thousands of dollars and the owners are scrambling to sell, before the axe falls.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • Hello Mike:

    It is my understanding that the land on which the IET headquarters building stands (Savoy Place) is owned indirectly by King Charles and a small token payment is made every year.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • Hello Mike:

    After WW11  in 1948 my parent (who never really talked about all the details) purchased an old home in London for a small amount as it only had 10 years left on the 99 year lease.

    Then the government changed the law to allow people to buy out the lease for again a very small amount of money. It thus became a very desirable property.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay 

    Florida