The IET is carrying out some important updates between 17-30 April and all of our websites will be view only. For more information, read this Announcement

Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 33 replies
  • Subscribers 31 subscribers
  • Views 5378 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion is locked.
You cannot post a reply to this discussion. If you have a question start a new discussion

Socket 1.5m from bath but outside bathroom

Sparkymania
Hi


On a periodic inspection I have given a code 2 to a socket that is in a hallway opposite a bathroom door with the edge of the bath 300mm from the door. In fact you can even touch both at the same time.

My supervisor has said that it is not in the location so it's not required to be at least 3m away.

I disagree with this for two reasons.

1) The principle of the 3m distance is to reduce the chance of someone plugging in something that can be used while in the bath or shower, e.g. a TV balanced on the edge of a bath. Therefore, it does not make a difference if the socket was in a bathroom less than 3m away from the bath or outside the bathroom less than 3m away.

2) The definition of "location" in section 701. This can mean different things depending on context. E.g. Shot on location in Egypt can mean the whole of Egypt. Insert pin in correct location means a specific point. I have read a discussion on this forum where the definition was described as only being within the zones but this was disputed. 

I always took it to mean "room" but then why does is not say room. Because of this issue with the 3m I then decided that "location" must be more general and include the areas outside the "room" that are effected by this reg. 

However, looking at reg 701,1 it seems to be more specific. To quote "...locations containing a bath... AND to the surrounding zones".

According to that statement the "zones" are surrounding the "location". Therefore the location must be the actual position of the bath or shower. Not the room it's in. Not the area around the zones. Not the area up to what is effected by the 3m reg.

Therefore, the 3m to sockets reg should still count as being "anywhere" irrespective or the definition of "location".


What are your views?
  • 0
    Indeed, zones stop at walls doors and fixed partitions.

    I don't know the statistics for electrocutions in total (strangely, a web search showed no info) but a TV electrical safety campaign would be good.




    Such figures as I could find are in the attached doc, getting a bit out of date, and really compiled to investigate the effect of part P,  but as you see the actual numbers  are so low as to be very variable from year to year.


    Now public information films are not quite what they used to be.  try this one about the time folk were changing lots of round pin sockets for square.


    And yes some folk really did this sort of thing, and most survived.



     


  • 0
    Just a data point: around 20 people per year drown in baths.
  • 0
    geoffsd

    Just took a look at 16ed 2001. Those zones where badly thought out. Glad they simplified it. You are right. the sockets reg which is now 3m from zone 3 was originally just "not within the zones". So the issue about the definition of location would not have come up. I wasn't testing then so I don't know what I would have thought at the that time but without the requirement for all 13A sockets to have RCD protection I'm sure this would still have been an issue with me, even more so.

    If we go back even further before zones, 16ed 1994 the requirement was "no sockets in bathroom",  and any other room containing a shower cubicle, "socket no less than 2.5m".

    So an non RCD protected socket outside the bathroom? Not a problem according to that version of the regs. Still wouldn't sit well with me.



    mapj1

    However, like you say the stats for bathroom deaths are low.

    That video reminds me of what I have found doing EICRs in student accommodation, especially foreign students with their unfused adaptors and forcing their plugs into UK sockets. I did once find what was in the video once though. Took pictures and sent it in to estates immediately.
  • 0
    Well as long as they weren't electrocuted...
  • 0
    John Peckham passed comment on the old forum that one of his students said “But what about when the bath is in the kitchen?”.

    Holland Estate.


     Andy Betteridge
  • 0
    Would this be a a fair assessment of the zones as currently construed?

    zone 0 - equipment likely to be submerged

    zone 1 - equipment likely to get wet from shower water / splashing etc, and can also be touched

    zone 2 - can be touched by someone reaching from bath/shower

    3m - longer than most power cords (except my laptop, which I bought a 5m lead for. Perhaps I'm sitting in the bath as I write this????)
  • 0
    Keep your knees up out of the water!
  • 0
    HA HA!

    That's exactly what I was living in, in Kilburn in 1979.

    It was a flat above a betting office opposite a notorious pub frequented by IRA sympathisers called Biddy Mulligan's.

    The bath was in the kitchen with a lid. It was filled by a separate cold water tap and hot water Ascot (who's flu exhausted into the roof space. Nice)

    Roof leaked every time it rained and had to empty buckets and bowls every two hours.

    Mind you, even though we've had regs since 1882 it was probably installed to the 13th ed.

    That edition might not even have had a section for special locations.

    Place was freezing in the winter so plugged in the 2 bar heater, portable TV and toaster, put them on the end of the bath, got in and kept warm while watching TV and eating toast.

    Must admit, it was a bit dangerous as the crumbs fell in the water.


    OK, that last bit wasn't true but the first bit was. Place was eventually condemned and I moved into a modern flat.
  • 0
    wallywombat


    I'd say yes
  • 0

    Sparkymania:

    That video reminds me of what I have found doing EICRs in student accommodation, especially foreign students with their unfused adaptors and forcing their plugs into UK sockets. I did once find what was in the video once though. Took pictures and sent it in to estates immediately. 




    That video is what was defined for me as a BTH Plug. I was told this by an old BTH employee who I worked with towards the end of his career and was one of the best engineers I have ever met. I am assuming that everyone is too young to remember BTH....

    BTH was British Thomson Houston based in Rugby, later becoming part of AEI, then GEC, then Cegelec, then Alsthom, then Converteam and now GE Power Conversion, and this was regularly used before health and safety started to be enforced. I have always maintained that the worst people for ignoring electrical safety guidance are electrical engineers, who (think they) know what they are doing.

Join us to get the best from IET EngX.

Joining EngX lets you personalise your experience so you stay up to date on the topics that interest you, plus you’ll be able to make connections who are looking to collaborate, exchange ideas and more.

Join us Not now

Community Rules & Guidelines