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Domestic Back Box and CPC Corrosion

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Hi all,


This might be a little too much detail but I'm stumped as to why I have rusty back boxes and cpc corrosion in part of my house and want to present the problem in full. I believe this may have been covered in the old forums but am having trouble locating the topic.


In two ground floor rooms of a two-storey extension I have some switch and socket back boxes with a fair bit of corrosion accompanied by oxidation of the cpc and I'm wondering what forces were at work to cause this. There is clearly rust on the back box but also a white salty deposit on the sections not rusted and what looks like drops of water sitting on the rust but are actually crystals of some sort. 

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The cpc is blackened to the same degree where it was exposed and when it is snipped and stripped, for how far I don't know yet. The cpc drops from the pendant above and it's fine up that end. The earth nut on the box shows some copper carbonate but this appears to have come after the copper oxide. The switch back box in the next room is rotated with the earth nut in the top-left but has the same rust, copper oxide and copper carbonate problems. All live conductors are in good condition showing only a little dullness having been installed in mid to late 90's.

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The wall pictured in an internal wall of solid plaster with singles or t&e in oval conduit leading to a suspended floor above with a similarly plastered ceiling. The switch pictured is in what used to be a kitchen but is now an office. The switch and socket back boxes with similar corrosion are in the next room, a living room with a fireplace, but only the switches and sockets on one side of the room show corrosion. 


In my mind I have ruled out:

- Water ingress as it would likely have pooled causing a different corrosion pattern and left some other evidence.

- Atmospheric moisture as it would have left some mark on the live conductors also.

- Chemical vapour (bleach) as it may have been at a kitchen switch but probably not at a living room socket and it would affect the live conductors again.

- Minerals leaching from the plaster as it would leave a mark on all back boxes in the room.

- High fault current as it would leave some other evidence but there is no heat damage to the insulation or switch.


Maybe it's a combined small amount of some of the above?


In any event, replacing the cpc and back boxes is doable but not something I would relish. I am hoping to clean it up a bit, test resistance and move on happy that at least I found a cpc behind the switch.


Any ideas?!


Neil
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    In my not very in-depth understanding, not all limes are equal. In this case, the lime is part of a cementous mix where a small amount of lime acts as a plasticiser, reducing how reactive it would be when mixed correctly.


    I had to do some reading up as my house has everything from gypsum boards to hessian-backed plaster to lime-wash depending on who built that room and when.


    On the subject of plastic back boxes, all I can find are drywall boxes which are not entirely fit for purpose in an already set solid wall. Would a buried white surface box be acceptable?

  • Neil O'Rourke:

    In my not very in-depth understanding, not all limes are equal. In this case, the lime is part of a cementous mix where a small amount of lime acts as a plasticiser, reducing how reactive it would be when mixed correctly.


    I had to do some reading up as my house has everything from gypsum boards to hessian-backed plaster to lime-wash depending on who built that room and when.


    On the subject of plastic back boxes, all I can find are drywall boxes which are not entirely fit for purpose in an already set solid wall. Would a buried white surface box be acceptable?




     A white surface box made of urea formaldehyde should be o.k. but the box will be the same size as the light switch and may not produce a neat finish. (No overlap of the switch plate)


    Z.

  • If a "fastafix" box is good enough for plasterboard then is it good enough for plaster?
  • Better with the proper thing I would have thought - e.g. https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1063225-1-gang-35mm-pvc-flush-pattress-box-round-corners-with-20mm-conduit-ko-white


    Presumably if zinc and steel and suitable you might have to be careful with the wall fixing screws....


      - Andy.
  • Note the box linked to above is 74mm by 74mm,  not the 87mm by 87 of the normal kind for mounting on the surface this size 

    - this allows the switch face to overhang the plaster by  6mm (quarter inch) on all sides, and hides the step you get if you try and bury a full size plastic box.


    If you really make a mess of the wall around the switch then these   finger plates  cover a multitude of sins
  • If it is of any help, when walls are to be lime plastered,  I fit PVC backboxs normally used with conduit or trunking.They have square and round knock-outs for cable entry. They are 35mm deep which means you have to chase out that little bit deeper, but they negate the brittleness of standard plastic surface mount boxes with their poor break-out tabs and you can seal with 20mm IP65 CTS glands to prevent entry of plaster into the box itself.

  • AJJewsbury:

    Better with the proper thing I would have thought - e.g. https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1063225-1-gang-35mm-pvc-flush-pattress-box-round-corners-with-20mm-conduit-ko-white


     




    OOOOOOooooooooohhhhh NO! It's got fixed lugs. Reach for the spirit level.


    Z.


  • Neil O'Rourke:

    Thanks for all the input folks!


    Having ruminated a little more I think the most likely candidate is damp as a catalyst between the plaster and back box. There is a high chance that this plaster is a hydraulic lime mix as is used elsewhere in the house which in contact with zinc and a suitable catalyst makes zinc hydroxide and calcium.


    The damp could have been an overly wet mix of plaster and/or a higher lime content which started a reaction to create the white deposits. Where enough zinc was removed it rusted creating rust underneath the white deposits. With that in play inside the back box it's not much of a reach to see how the cpc in contact with the back box via the earth nut has also corroded, although I can't explain that one fully just yet.


    Might the catalyst also have been earth leakage or some other current passing through the cpc as Legh suggested? This would explain why only the cpc shows corrosion.


    Edit: I forgot to add, could this also be the recently mentioned capillary action pulling the damp up inside the cpc?




    I agree.

    As has been said, there several different types of lime that can be used, some are much more chemically active than others.

    The key point in all this IMO is at some time the backbox has suffered the effects of condensation.

    It is significant that at some time this was a kitchen where condensation is common.

    I have to say from looking at your photos that it doesn't look like any lime plaster I have seen.

    It looks more like cement and a skim of white plaster with lime content possibly?

    I know almost no plasterer who can use lime plaster in the old fashioned way.  Some think a little lime added to the plaster mix is all is is about!

    The lugs of the box were most probably damaged by the type of lime plaster used and moisture did the rest.

    The CPC (perhaps brought in at a later time.... cannot see original cables)  has been affected by the damp more than the other cables because it is has been made with different materials and methods.

    i.e different lubricants when the copper was formed and different plasticisers in the pvc sheath.


    As a matter of interest almost all the walls in my house are of lime plaster finish, some replastered in the last 20 years. (Three stages of application over several weeks)

    No backboxes have been affected by it.

    It replaced a cement and thistle plaster put up in the 1960s and the metal backboxes in that were very rusty indeed.