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EVSE questions

lyledunn
A major player in the EVSE market has kindly consented to provide some technical training for the electrical installation tutors at a training centre where I often tutor part-time. I imagine it is not entirely motivated by altruistic considerations but at least it gives an opportunity for the tutors and myself to get some kind of grasp on the various products on offer and where this particular manufacturer sees the direction of travel for EVSE. I am already aware that the company is moving away from products that rely on the installation of earth electrodes in PME situations and are placing considerable focus on load management. Is there any particular question that you would ask them given the opportunity?
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    Load management? Why, that is the question. Are they expecting EV charging to be restricted? Why should the consumer pay for this? What is the source of the information? Also why are they not lobbying for class 2 EVs in Ireland, which is potentially a much bigger problem and would minimise consumer cost. It might hit their profits but would be SAFER.


    Good luck, I await the answers!
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    I'd ask a few of questions.

    1. How are their customers going to cope when the overloaded grid start switching of supplies?

    2. When it's finally discovered that we only have natural climate change and the sea levels are not rising and CO2 is not an issue and we can use our fossil fuels. What then?

    3. When will it be possible to afford an Electric vehicle for the average person?
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    Jon Steward:

    I'd ask a few of questions.

    1. How are their customers going to cope when the overloaded grid start switching of supplies?

    2. When it's finally discovered that we only have natural climate change and the sea levels are not rising and CO2 is not an issue and we can use our fossil fuels. What then?

    3. When will it be possible to afford an Electric vehicle for the average person?


    1. The National Grid aren't worried about the increased load.  Lots of other people keep saying that the grid is going to fail, but not the people who are actually running it.  We've been buying so many energy-efficient appliances in recent years, that the total load has gone down a bit.  If it goes up again as we switch to EVs, the grid will cope.  No big deal.

    2. Wishful thinking, ignoring the science, and the evidence all around us.

    3. Give it a few years.  Batteries keep coming down in price.  But there's still a shortage of them.  It's already the case that if you look at the total running cost over the lifetime of the vehicle, then EVs are cheaper.  But the up-front cost of buying one is still high.


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    Sorry I don't believe any of that!

    Fake science!
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    OK Simon, please give a reference to the proof that CO2 levels control the temperature in any way. There is none whatsoever, and the proof that they are not is that CO2 levels trail temperature temperatures is huge. A computer model that is not validated as reasonably accurate (in fact has been shown to be useless) is not scientific evidence, it is propaganda. It would be expected that any slight change in temperature of the sea surface would release CO2, because the solubility of CO2 is inversely proportional to temperature (fact), but we do not see this CO2. Note that CO2 level rise has not changed during the last period (Covid) at all, despite the huge change in fossil fuel usage. Why not? Because most of the rise is from natural sources, not Man!


    I would like your Scientific reference please, then we can discuss that.


    The Grid is in difficulty, often. You don't see it on the BBC etc because they don't report important scientific or Engineering news. The latest rubbish about offshore wind doesn't mention the backup gas required to make it actually work, why not? Dark winter days, no wind and you will KILL 10,000 people when the electricity fails. Is that progress? It would be much worse than Covid! All to "Save the planet".
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    Simon Barker:

    3. Give it a few years.  Batteries keep coming down in price.  But there's still a shortage of them.  It's already the case that if you look at the total running cost over the lifetime of the vehicle, then EVs are cheaper.  But the up-front cost of buying one is still high.


    The lifetime cost is entirely dependent upon doing a fairly high mileage because taxation on the fuel is very much lower. The sums certainly don't work for me.


    Back to the OP. Please ask whether there should be a move towards 3-phase domestic supplies on the basis that (1) it may be easier to deal with a lost neutral and (2) more powerful charging would be available.


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    Load management? Why, that is the question. Are they expecting EV charging to be restricted? Why should the consumer pay for this?

    I could hazard a few guesses...


    Initially load management would be very useful where you want to offer more charge points than your supply could support without diversity and drivers aren't in a particular hurry - workplace car parks for instance. Without some controls there would be a major demand when everyone arrives (around 0900 say) and tail off as cars become fully charged - so by mid afternoon the demand would have dropped to almost nil. Load management would allow the demand to be spread more evenly over the day - saving on distribution infrastructure and making better use of generation capacity.


    Longer term I foresee charge points interfacing with smart meters - to pick the cheapest time (& rate) to charge while being careful not to overload the overall supply.


      - Andy.
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    I am already aware that the company is moving away from products that rely on the installation of earth electrodes in PME situations

    I'd ask what their position is for charging electric camper vans.


    Since the law appears to define a camper van as a kind of "caravan" and the ESQCR prohibits the use of PME for caravans, it would seem it wouldn't be lawful to use their "PME switching" products to charge an EV camper van. (Even if the duty to comply is technically on the DNO rather than the consumer, the DNO might feel obliged to discontinue the supply or earthing facility to the consumer, which amounts to the same result.)


    Would they recommend reversion to the TT island approach, be lobbying their MPs for a revision to the ESQCR or be supplying stickers with their EVSE saying "Not suitable for charging electric camper vans"?


       - Andy,
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    Andy, the load management idea is impossible without central control. Let's say a computer manages a City. There is a computer problem (oh and don't say it is not possible, or even avoidable, in reality, it is not). All the cars end up not charged at all at the end of the day. No one can go home. Who fixes that problem? The cost of making it "unlikely" is very high, as is the cost if it happens. Who pays, well it won't be the system manufacturer!


    In order for this to work, we need to know, in advance, the total power availability, and the maximum possible demand by other things except for car chargers. Tell me within say 5% the minute by minute availability from wind and solar. No one can, and this is why we need spinning-reserve.


    I for one am not happy for anyone to control exactly how much power I may have. I will not be subject to someone else being willing to pay more or less, or in fact to have my freedom to be controlled by anyone, without my consent. That is communism with a dictator. Is that what you really want? Smart meters are a step in this direction which I find unacceptable, therefore I do not have a smart meter.
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    AJJewsbury:
    I am already aware that the company is moving away from products that rely on the installation of earth electrodes in PME situations

    I'd ask what their position is for charging electric camper vans.


    Since the law appears to define a camper van as a kind of "caravan" and the ESQCR prohibits the use of PME for caravans, it would seem it wouldn't be lawful to use their "PME switching" products to charge an EV camper van. (Even if the duty to comply is technically on the DNO rather than the consumer, the DNO might feel obliged to discontinue the supply or earthing facility to the consumer, which amounts to the same result.)


    Would they recommend reversion to the TT island approach, be lobbying their MPs for a revision to the ESQCR or be supplying stickers with their EVSE saying "Not suitable for charging electric camper vans"?


       - Andy,


    The ESQCR prohibits the supplier from connecting a PME supply to a caravan.  It says nothing about a consumer choosing to plug their motorhome into a 13A socket.  For that reason, perhaps it's best to keep ESQCR as it is, to avoid endless insurmountable problems brought on by over-zealous regulations.


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