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Tricky fault finding and rectification job

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Hello,

I’d be grateful for some advice on a tricky job.

Got an evening call out to a house where the power had gone off, the RCD kept tripping.

Arrived, checked, it was an old-fashioned fuse board with six circuits, two 30 amp rings, upstairs and downstairs, two 5 amp lighting circuits, up and down, a 16-amp combi boiler and a 40-amp shower fuse. The RCD had been installed at some time on the tails between the meter and board to cover the fuses.

As I investigated, I found some problems. I opened up all the ground floor sockets, most of them were OK, wired correctly, LL, NN, EE, but a switch for an outside light had been wired directly from a socket without a fused spur, I disconnected it. I also found a double socket spur that had been wired directly from the cooker control switch; the neutral terminal inside the double socket had melted, so I disconnected that and made it redundant. Also found a double socket that had partly melted at the front, replaced that with a new one.

When I switched the board back on (after safe isolation for the work) the RCD tripped again. It was an old one, so I replaced it, but tripping continued. I eventually pulled out the fuse for the downstairs ring, and everything else worked fine. Customers don’t have a downstairs ring circuit for the moment, they are plugging into a 10-meter long four-socket extension running from a socket on the upstairs ring.

That’s the scenario, now I have four questions:

One, I’m going back on Tuesday (earliest I can get back) to do a split-ring IR test, problem is, I’ve been out of work for months due to the lock down, and the calibration on my Fluke MF tester is a few months out of date, that’s why I didn’t take it first time, will the IR tests I do be fairly reliable?

Two, I’ve noticed that the cooker control switch is working, as there is power on the cooker socket, but there is no fuse in the board for the cooker, what might be going on there?

Three, I did a belling out test with a long extension link to establish how the downstairs ring is interconnected, and I noticed that a leg of old red and black cable in a front room socket is linked to a leg of new brown and blue cable in one of the kitchen sockets, i.e. when I put the croc clip of my test cable onto the copper end of the red live in the front room, and the other croc clip of the test cable onto one probe of my Kewtech hand tester, the tester beeped as soon as I touched the other probe onto the copper end of a brown live in the kitchen. so I’m assuming that the old and new cables are linked by a hidden junction box; that might be causing the problem. How can I locate the box?

Four, if I do narrow the fault down to a leg of the circuit, then how can I repair that leg? I ask because it’s an old house, built in the 1940’s, and if, say, a leg of the ring has damaged cable, how do I replace that without tearing out part of the wall and ceiling, causing inconvenience to the customers?

Thank you if you can help.

  • Unlikely to be a damaged cable unless they have been doing some DIY.  You were on a hiding to nothing trying to find a fault without an IR tester.   As above isolate each circuit to start with and break it down.  sounds like it might be the socket circuit so remove all appliances to start with then put back one at a time  if it clears.  Is there a pond or other outdoor power.  Dodgy freezer or 40 year old fluorescent in the garage.  Water ingress ?



    Gary
  • Hmm, the cooker still works when you remove the protective device for it from the consumer unit?

    New coloured (Brown/blue) cabling present?

    Sounds to me like someone has hooked the cooker into the downstairs ring somewhere and this has overloaded and damaged the cable?

    So, just to recap - is the cooker still working even though you say the downstairs ring is off at the moment?

    I'd be wanting find out exactly which circuits presently feeds the cooker.
  • Good point.   Is it an actual cooker or one of these plug in ovens and a gas hob  ?
  • You could do worse than ask them when the cooker wiring was changed - they may know and remember what else was done- if it coincided with work under the bedroom floor or whatever. Clues like bumpy plaster, mis-matched kitchen tiles etc may all be indicators.


    In terms of finding the placew where the fault may be, also look for add-ons - lights out to the garage or porch that are not original.

    Depending on the budget, they may  just want the power on and not worry about the rest for now - hence the 'cut and shut' options like making  the ring a centre fed radial may be on the table.
  • Not doing an insulation test taking in the complete installation and appliances before you start disconnecting and dismantling things is a big mistake.


    How do you know what you are looking for or if you have found it without using the tester?


    If you have identified a faulty socket circuit and have disconnected it, with tester on the end of the circuit simply unplugging appliances may reveal that one of them is faulty, after disconnecting all the appliances when you start opening up fittings the fault may “disappear” as far as the tester is concerned, because you have released a trapped wire.


    Often I open up fittings and insulation test at them to see if the fault has “disappeared”, with socket circuits you can use a plug in test lead socket adapter, particularly with the circuit disconnected and appliances removed allowing you to identify it is a neutral to earth fault, so you only need to test between them.


    I have watched YouTube videos of guys “fault finding” installations with tripping a RCD without using an insulation tester, just bang testing the RCD, they really should not be charging customers good money for that. The whole point of getting an electrician in is to have someone who is knowledgeable and also with appropriate test equipment.


    The biggest issue regards fault finding is doing an insulation test and getting a good result, you then start the conversation of what might have been in use that is no longer connected and clutching at straws.


     Andy Betteridge
  • As this installation only has one upfront RCD you can immediately rule out a borrowed neutral and other similar misconnections within the installation.
  • I spent a couple of days looking for a fault on a ring circuit, I traced it to what I think was a JB under the bathroom floor (tiled) possibly wet from an undetected leak, I ended up rewiring around the fault, there were also other issues which made life difficult, broken neutral & loose CPCs
  • Have had an RCD trip due to the earth wire squeezing through the insulation to give an Earth-Neutral fault. Luckily it was pretty obvious when the dual socket was removed from the back box. The T+E had a good kink in it which didn't help. 

    Would much prefer if all three cores were insulated as they are in Ireland and with a full size earth conductor.
  • Yes and do away with the need to have sleeving at hand or climb down the ladder to retrieve the bit that dropped off
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Hello,


    I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who has responded to my query, you've all given useful advice and hints that I have taken on board for when I return to the job on Tuesday next.


    Thanks Again,


    David