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Follow up question: quote for connection and local supply issue

Morgan Phillips
Thanks for the fantastic replies I had to my previous question, helping me to understand the supply locally and enabling me to successfully push back on the quote/plan provided. 


I now have one further query.


WPD say that if they were upgrading the local network they would overlay the current 95mm wcon cable with a 185mm wcon cable, but that this alone would not be sufficient to allow for my property to be connected to the local network. Instead, they said that for me to be connected, a 300mm wcon cable needs to be laid, and they want me to fund the difference between the 185 cable and the 300 cable. 


As they were less than scrupulously transparent in their previous quote, I would like to check if anybody has any thoughts on the veracity of this? Why would upgrading to a 185mm cable not allow sufficient capacity to add my supply? Why would they not, if doing an upgrade and presumably incurring significant cost, simply upgrade to future proof the local supply with a 300mm2 cable?


I'm particularly concerned that what they have said about replacing the 95mm2 cable with a 185mm2 cable (that this would not be sufficient to connect me to the supply) is untrue.

Plan of existing supply.pdf
Updated plan for new supply.png
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    Thanks Mike, that's really interesting and helpful. I agree, I think they are trying to wear me down with vagueness and hope that the delay of dragging these answers out of them will force me to accept their offer so as to get the supply in situ by the time the build is due to begin. 

    I would be more open to accepting what they have said if I felt that they were being genuinely open, and acting fairly, rather than seeing how much they can get me to contribute to their infrastructure upgrade.

    Anyhoo, I will give this chap a call as try to get clear answers in writing is obviously a lost cause. See where that takes me.

    Thanks again for your helpful replies. I couldn't do this without your collective knowledge!

    M
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    ? all compliments gratefully received ???
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    My thoughts are with the forthcoming electrical contractor, perhaps we should warn him?


    Regards, UKPNZap
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    Sorry - missed the fact it was a new post.

    Ah, they are wiggling again..


    So if the 95mm cable is now carrying 188.5 amps  per phase (though this level of precision is like measuring a walnut with a micrometer - a different silly answer each time, I bet that is not a properly measured value -  if they had said "ooh about 150-200A depending on the day"  that would be more credible.) then they need to change it anyway.


    Adding your 15KVA supply (3 phases or 5kW  each  ( or if you  prefer, about 21 odd amps each phase)  pushes it to 219.5 amps.


    They still need to change it, and still to the same thing .

    It is probably still cheaper for you to have a feed, just for you, teed off from nearer the substation, and if that is the cheaper option, then either they give you that or fund the difference.

    They may be hoping you will just roll over at some point.

    regards,

    Mike.

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    (1) Not really answered, but they seem to assume that your load will be <= 63 A. A 15 kVA supply hardly seems consistent with (4). Providing 3-phase up to the cut out seems v. sensible, but doesn't treble the agreed supply. Perhaps they are looking ahead to EV charging points?


    (2) According to the Eland data above, 95 mm² is good for 227 A (in ducts) so I can see the need to go up to 185 mm², but no further as things stand.


    (3) They haven't really explained themselves.


    I think that Morgan needs to speak to WPD.
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    Quick update on this - I asked WPD the following questions and received the answers below:

     
    1. What are your assumptions about the power requirements for my property?
    We would quote your property at 15 Kw which is our box standard supply for a house. As regards to what your load is going to be I would not know that.

     


    2. What are the loadings on the existing cable?  
    188.5A

     


    3. When you overlay the 185mm2 cable, why not use the existing 95mm2 cable for my supply directly (given that it will be in situ and no longer needed)?
    Overlaying with a 185mm cable and using the old 95mm cable as your service cable is still causing a problem, to alleviate this the cable needs to go to a 300mm one.

    4/Just for information, all new services into properties will be 3 phase, this will be WPD’s minimum cable as from last week, you can still have a single phase meter of it.

     


    I’m not sure what this means for my enquiry about why I am being asked to fund the upgraded (300mm2) cable - and there is a paucity of explanation as to why the existing cable can’t be used for my property. I am wondering whether to speak to the WPD chap on the phone (as he has tried calling me a few times) but I don’t really know what I need to know, or what the information he is giving me means. I just know what I am a little dubious having had them try to fleece me in the first place.



    Any assistance with understanding this would be most appreciated.



    Cheers

    Morgan


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    Brilliant thinking!! Thank you, that's a really good suggestion. I will have a chat with the WPD chap and see what he says...
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    Hello again

    Overlay normally means that a new cable is laid along the same route to replace the old cable.  Sometimes the old cable or sections of it is/are removed sometimes it isn't.


    Without more information on the existing loads I really cant give you a definite answer however if the overload on the existing 95mm2 cable is so severe that virtually all of the capacity of a 185mm2 cable would be needed that implies something approach a 70% overload and I would have expected problems before now.


    As a next step I would ask them what they are assuming about your new power requirements (they seem to be providing only a single phase service) and what the loadings are on the existing cable.


    Another alternative would be that they overlay the 95mm2 cable but re-use it to feed your new service.  It could simply be jointed to the new 185mm2 cable at source.  That way they might even save the cost of the breeches joint at the crook of the field.


    I would keep asking questions and see where you get to.
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    As far as The OFGEM book of words (P16)  are concerned the term implies eventual disconnection/removal  of the original cable

    Cable overlays This is an alternative expression for the replacement of an existing underground >cable with a new underground cable. The activity includes the installation of the new underground cable, the full decommissioning of the existing underground cable, any necessary underground cable jointing and any associated network operations


    To minimise disruption, there is a period when both old and new are live, and then customers are transferred across, usually live working. I'm sure there will be cases where the old cable gets left in, but this probably isn't one of them.

    More generally I think a lot of dicky 'Consac' cable from the 1970s is being overlaid, before the aluminium outer fails.
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    perspicacious:

    By replying Chris I'm not claiming to be more learned, but my understanding is that the term "overlay" is exactly that, they leave the existing in place and put another cable adjacent/over it.


    So, BOD, is that replace rather than augment? I have been thinking again about overlay and I suppose that it makes sense to re-open the original trench. If the cable is replaced, any junctions will have to be re-made, but AFAIK, DNOs wouldn't want to undo a live junction, so that would seem to indicate replace rather than augment.


    Alan C, UKPN, any comments?


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