davezawadi (David Stone):
I'll answer those but the reference given is good...
High CO2 levels in the carboniferous are fact, though most references I found in a brief search give 1500-3000 ppm, falling towards more like 350 ppm towards the end of the period. It's important to note that whilst the Earth was "fine" that does not mean the climate was suitable for humans (who start to suffer health problems at around 2000 ppm), or indeed any mammals at all. It certainly does not imply that it would be possible to farm modern food crops under carboniferous conditions or that sea levels would be consistent with those to which we are accustomed. The carboniferous period ended nearly 300 million years ago, humans have only been around 1/1000th of that time and CO2 levels have been under 300 ppm for several times longer than humans have been here.
Given the seasonal variation in CO2 levels, and the general noisiness in the data, I would not have expected to see the effect of a 25% change for a single year. Isotope ratios also provide clear evidence that the carbon being added to the atmosphere is ancient, do you have a plausible alternative hypothesis as to its source? Or indeed for where the carbon that we evidently do emit is going?
@Jon, it is somewhat inconsistent to refer to Dr. Roy Spencer as "a nasa scientist" (which he is), and make that argument from authority without also acknowledging that the position of NASA as a whole is that anthropogenic climate change is real and supported by evidence.
We've gone off-topic a little.
davezawadi (David Stone):
I'll answer those but the reference given is good:
- That atmospheric CO2 levels have increased over time
It has been much higher and much lower over history. It was about 6000 ppm in the Carboniferous period, it is about 420 ppm now,
- That the CO2 increase is due to human activity
It is indicated by the reference I gave earlier the CO2 level is not due to man. The level measured in Muna Loa, the global reference, has increased at exactly the same rate during Covid, although fossil fuel use has dropped about 25% for the period, this doesn't show AT ALL.
- That atmospheric CO2 levels impact global climate
Really, at 420 ppm any effect is tiny? The Earth didn't overheat when it was 6000 ppm, and all the coal seams were laid down because it makes vegetation grow extremely well. All the data is against this!
1) Yes, 350 million years ago CO2 levels were much higher. The global temperature was also about 6 degrees higher, despite the sun being less luminous then. In the last million years or so CO2 levels have varied between about 180-280 ppm, then in the last 200 years have shot up to 420 ppm. This is a sudden marked increase.
2) In the "wave power" thread a day or two ago you airily claimed 25% fossil fuel drop and and Muna Loa increasing at a constant rate. I asked for citations - you claimed it was somehow my responsibility to disprove your figures. So I went away and looked. I found a creditable source (Nature) that showed only 6% fossil fuel drop, and looked up the raw Muna Loa data showing a drop in the yearly increase rate in 2020 compared with 2019. You never replied to this. Instead you are still repeating your original assertions in this thread instead.
3) Of course the earth overheated at 6000 ppm. It was far hotter in the carboniferous than now. No one is claiming it got hot enough to destroy life, just that it was hotter, and that if a similar heat rise happened to the earth now, a lot of ecosystems would be damaged or destroyed to the sudden change in climate. (Just as an aside, the coal seams were laid down because trees had evolved, but there was then a long lag before suitable fungi/bacteria etc evolved which could process lignite, so most of the atmospheric CO2 got buried.)
You say that the 420ppm effect is tiny. In a way it is indeed tiny. Going from 280 ppm to 420 ppm CO2 is only going to increase global temperate from 287K to 289K or so. A tiny change! A mere 2 degrees! Note however that when the earth was a mere 4 degrees cooler, Boston was under a mile of ice.
we also need to know the outside temperature acceptable to achieve this, and I suggest that in the UK on average this should probably be accepted as -10C.
Heat up time nearly infinite because the heating has forgotten the thermal mass
Jon Steward:
Not really off topic as this is a really important point. All the new green tech is based on an assumption that the planet will get to plus 4 degrees C by the end of the century due to man made co2. Which is shown to be unproven by scientist lime Dr Roy Spencer. Now you can believe whatever you like, that's your choice. I believe that the planet and human race are in no trouble apart from the nonsense spouted by the green agenda and it's vested parties. The lunatics are taking over.!
So NASA have got it wrong, the Met Office have got it wrong, the European Space Agency have got it wrong, basically, everybody whose job involves monitoring the weather has got it wrong. Because your one scientist says so.
AJJewsbury:
By all means point out that in the "brave new world" if you don't have a properly insulated house you'll be less comfortable at times (and have to put on a jumper or resort to only heating the rooms you're actually using like our grandparents did).
Come and tell that to my Mrs P! Our house is too old to be “properly insulated” unless, for example, the windows are replaced, which is difficult given our local listing. Father used to say that if we were cold we could move about a bit more or put on more clothing, which is fair enough (at least if you are paying the bills ? ). Problem is that Mrs P was born and brought up in the warm southern hemisphere and thinks that the whole house should be toasty warm like a care home. ?
The point I was making seems to have been misunderstood, if CO2 levels many times that now did not turn the Earth into Venus, why should they now be a problem? 1or 2 degrees is fine for everything presently on Earth (including Polar Bears which are thriving) and crops like higher temperatures and more CO2. Cold kills Humans, and if you read the data rather more carefully than the headlines, it is quite likely that we are beginning to enter a new Ice age. Now that really would be a problem in a few hundred years' time!
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