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Are Hager MTN MCBs backwards compatible with Hager MT MCBs? EVSE consumer unit upgrades.

An apparently straightforward question 

www.edwardes.co.uk/.../hager-mtn132-32a-b-type-mcb-6ka

  • From a practical point of view I look at older split load consumer units and think there’s a spare non-RCD way that may be suitable for an EVSE supply, but then see a five year old dual-RCD split CU and think it actually isn’t at all suitable.

  • True, but  that is only a formal acknowledgement of the energy let through (limiting action) of 100A company fuses.

    There is the odd question of if the company fuses are supposed to respond to faults more than 3m down the wire, but we will ignore that. *
    This ensures that the damage done to the MCB and any downstream wiring for very low impedance faults is limited by the fuse going first. In many ways this too is in the wrong set of regulations, as again there is also nothing magical involving different physics in the UK - a death or glory fuse up ahead of anything where otherwise the PSSC would be too high is a general technique used the world over to safely reduce the weight of cables and switchgear that would otherwise have to be oversized just on PSSC grounds.

    The equivalence of I2t and j/Ω of damage energy per ohm of fault path is not well articulated, and the same concept appears in Germanic countries texts as something that might translate as restriction of 'the action integral', a turn of phrase that in English I have only seen in Lightning related documentation by DEHN in relation to melting conductors and cutting holes in steel roofs etc. perhaps revealing their original authorship. (and if lightning is not an example of a short duration high current pulse that deserves to be adiabatically considered I'm not sure what is)

    Mike.

    * I think there can be an element of trying to  codify laws of physics and that is not always sensible (as an example and an amusing aside the Indiana Pi Bill comes to mind as a case of historical overreach ) Just because a committee can publish advice without giving an obvious reason, it is not always wise.

  • True, but  that is only a formal acknowledgement of the energy let through (limiting action) of 100A company fuses.

    And the fact that we use mcb's that are only in themselves rated for 6 kA prospective fault current ... absolutely fine for most installations, but the very few "near the transformer" as it were need to be covered by the test in the National Annex to BS EN 61439-3 (and BS EN 60439-3 prior to that) ...

  • Indeed, but the same combination  - a high breaking capacity energy limiting fuse and 6kA rated devices on supply with pre-fuse 16kA PSSC would be just as safe anywhere on the planet, not just here, and indeed is common, but more often with bottle fuses rather than house cut-outs, as those seem to be a unique UK thing.
    We could just say that the 6kA only limits the fault that the breaker itself can be relied upon to disconnect, above that  you accept it might decide to  fuse solid and never work again, and relegate the ADS functions to the company fuse, the rating becomes that which ruptures the case or melts the interconnecting wires. That is what I mean when I said the annexe is probably in the wrong place - it could probably be deleted if something like the above went in BS7671 instead. As written it sounds like 'oh we  do not care about the 6ka rating and take a terrible liberty' in fact it is safe and justified, but the reasoning is not clear,  and it is not always well understood by the right group of folk, and the knock on consequences as in this thread, are many-fold.
    Mike.
    Edit

    PS I know you probably could not say that in a standard, but you could say that where an upstream energy limiting fuse is present, the MCB PSSC rating may be ignored, so long as the fuse let-through is below the damage level of the breaker, which is presumably only a small multiple of its own maximum let-though without failure at 6kA. (else it would be rated for 10ka ;-) )

  • PS I know you probably could not say that in a standard, but you could say that where an upstream energy limiting fuse is present, the MCB PSSC rating may be ignored, so long as the fuse let-through is below the damage level of the breaker, which is presumably only a small multiple of its own maximum let-though without failure at 6kA. (else it would be rated for 10ka ;-) )

    Well, isn't that, in a round-about way, what BS 7671 says in Regulation 536.4.201?