mapj1 said:

It strikes me a similar designed in approach will eventually be needed for battery systems, at least larger ones.

Are there not requirements for LPG and other fuel storage?

gkenyon said:

ironically, not all year round !

I was referring to the insulation construction method being “cold roof” and therefore ventilated rather than a “warm roof”, not the ambient temperature. It was meant to be light hearted! Not a judgment on the PAS.

gkenyon said:

In making that statement, you appear to believe that LifePO4 was ignored in the development of the PAS, and requires some "special treatment"

Again, not my intention. Merely supplying balance to the shocking video posted earlier that highlights the explosive nature of lithium ion chemistry. I believe its important to highlight the facts and the differences, regardless of the PAS, as misinformation spreads easily and can have a negative PR effect for all chemistries on the market (which includes outdoor installations).

If i appear to arguing for the sake of it, I'm not. Ive installed around 50 ESS setups as per MCS/ manufacturer guidelines at the time and want to be clear in my mind about the hazzards the PAS is highlighting. I want to know that my installs are safe as I believed them to be at the time.
Currently, i feel confident that the LifePO4 chemistry’s greatest risk is toxic gas following puncture. Not fire or being the victim of fire. Though with the installation of smoke detectors this for me is similar to safeguards implemented for other appliances eg CO emissions from boilers etc.
I never implied that you hadn't considered LifePO4 chemistry during the development of the PAS. Indeed, as this was considered perhaps you can provide me with any links to data for heavier than air gas emissions for LifePO4 batteries? Im aware of it with lithium ion, but cant find it for the iron chemistry. It would be a big help.

Again my discussion is not railing against the PAS. It is what it is, and i will follow its guidance if so directed. It is simply for peace of mind! 

yes, and that is sort of my point, - but in part LPG and oil is less serious in the UK because most folk don't use it, and those that do tend to be rural where there is space for an oil or propane tank out in the yard as per HSE guidance. I suspect we would like to have solar with battery storage in more built up areas too.

If the use of bottled gas was common for example in blocks of flats in the UK, we'd find we had calor gas bottles in the kitchen of each flat, indeed, where I am staying right now, they do just that link, and although it sounds and looks horrific,  in practice it is not a major cause of accidents.

My point is that we need to modify how we design new buildings, and probably become quite creative and much less fuddy duddy with what we allow to be done in and on existing ones.

M

DA said:

construction method being “cold roof” and therefore ventilated rather than a “warm roof”,

OK, but my "cold roof" 100 % definitely isn't that cold for quite a chunk of the year.

DA said:

It was meant to be light hearted!

OK, but this topic is being taken very seriously in the industry ... and quite rightly so.

DA said:

If i appear to arguing for the sake of it, I'm not. Ive installed around 50 ESS setups as per MCS/ manufacturer guidelines at the time and want to be clear in my mind about the hazzards the PAS is highlighting. I want to know that my installs are safe as I believed them to be at the time.

I understand this. There was ample opportunity to be involved earlier.
No-one is saying the standard is retrospective ... and I'm not going to pass judgement on installs I've not seen.

However, the plain fact of the matter is that most of the discussion is around "not in the loft".

This misses, by more than a Nautical Mile, the issue that the PAS says, first and foremost, and wholly divorced from battery chemistry ...  "Outdoors please ... unless it's not practicable".

That doesn't mean "the battery I have in stock isn't suitable for outdoor use so it's impracticable" ... but that if at all possible, you should select an appropriate battery and install it somewhere other than the  inhabitable parts of the premises or their immediate vicinity.

Given that, the argument over "loft or not" is rather academic, don't you think?

It might be interesting to compare with caravan systems - as they've been using energy storage for decades - both electrical (typically a 100Ah 12V lead acid leisure battery (so 1.2kWh ish) although Li-Ion and higher capacities are becoming more popular - and LPG (Propane) - often a couple of 19kg bottles - around 500kWh at a guess?

   - Andy.

Very interesting read. I know people focused mostly on the loft part, which is to be fair - the only "sane" part of this PAS - but I encourage everyone to actually read through it chapter by chapter. It is without a doubt as close as a country can get to a blanket ban on 99% of EESS installations in residential premises. Fat cats with 200sqm mansions excluded.

But as you read through this bizarre document, with eyes gradually getting wider and wider, and begin to make mental notes of every WTF moment and question or comment that pops into your head -  somewhere between "it is literally impossible to install in just about any terrace house in UK" and "just how are you going to run those DC cables from the battery system in the garden under the ground back to the inverter in most of the houses" - you'll also realise just how ridiculous is the idea to install EESS outside. On the sun in summer and in minus temperatures in winter. Most manufacturers won't even allow it.

And just like that... puff - the entire branch of PV industry gone. Yet... You'll still be able to park your Tesla in a garage or on your driveway one meter from the door or window without LD2 interlinked fire system. You'll still be able to leave your up to 54V powertool batteries on the charger without boarding them up in a 30 minute containment made of plasterboard or creating ventilation to the outside. You'll still be able to run UPS for your computers anywhere at home. And charge power banks from rainforest shop of any size overnight next to your bed. And heavens willing - your kids will still somehow survive through their childhood without randomly pulling Gg fuses from the DIN mounted cartridges protecting your DC cables next to PV SPDs in the enclosure somewhere in the loft. (Oh, and don't tell me you still install them next to the inverter under the stairs - read your BS7671 you barbarians - they are there to protect your cables as well and meant to be as close as possible to the source of the installation, not to "look pretty" next to isolators. "The source" in this case is on the roof). 

Yet somehow... only in UK... you won't be allowed to store energy made by your PV system in what only yesterday appeared to be the most tested, most developed, safest  and stable energy storage technology this world created to date. And why not? Because, to quote one otherwise usually very wise IET man - if we were to be reasonable about it and employ evidence based risk approach "we would have to wait until things start going wrong and people losing their lives". Well done everyone involved. 

Oh, and you forgot about a few locations. It looks like we can still fit them in kitchens, toilets or utility rooms. Just amend it to something like "not in a location areas that present a high fire risk to occupants, including any kitchen and the principal habitable room or locations at risk of water damage or flooding".

"just how are you going to run those DC cables from the battery system in the garden under the ground back to the inverter in most of the houses"

Don't you just design out that problem by using a.c. power interconnects? (e.g. charger and inverter alongside the battery, separate PV inverter)..

you'll also realise just how ridiculous is the idea to install EESS outside. On the sun in summer and in minus temperatures in winter. Most manufacturers won't even allow it.

But others do - e.g. Tesla Powerwalls are OK indoors or outdoors at temperatures between -20°C and +50°C - so the technical challenges are surmountable. So it comes down to a design decision to choose equipment that's suitable for the intended environment. If there's an increased demand for ones that'll work outside then market forces will usually oblige other manufacturers to catch up.

   - Andy.

Martin Korczak said:

Because, to quote one otherwise usually very wise IET man - if we were to be reasonable about it and employ evidence based risk approach "we would have to wait until things start going wrong and people losing their lives". Well done everyone involved. 

All I will say to that, is that it's quoted out of context. The question that answered was a little more specific, and the answer was appropriate there. But I understand people sometimes only see what they want to see.

Otherwise, people are entitled to their opinions. Opinions which could have been expressed at the appropriate point in time, that was publicised:  RE: Public Consultation: PAS 63100 Electrical installations – Protection against fire of battery energy storage systems for use in dwellings – Specification