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Advice on compliance with regulations for new kitchen and general wiring question

Jamesb

Hi all, a couple of things:

1. We are looking at getting a new kitchen - live in old house with COB/brick/thatch construction for info. The kitchen fitter sent his electrician a pic of the current Consumer Unit which is a Wylex split load RCD, plastic case and he wants to replace it. The house wiring contains a mix of old and new wiring colours, but I had an EICR about a year ago to comply with my insurance requirements and it passed OK. Is there any good reason for requiring a change? He said something, via the kitchen fitter, along the lines of conforming with current regulations back to the fuse box. Is this really the case as I didn't think so from what I've read? I'm a chartered engineer, but only work on low voltage stuff so need to check what the situation is with people familiar with the regulations working on this day in, day out before I start querying this if it goes ahead.

2. One of the circuits has a 10A MCB feeding a junction box just below the CU which feeds through to some outside lights (old halogens no longer working via armoured cable outside) and a 13a socket just below the CU. The location of socket means it's really just used to plug in the hoover. Where does this stand with regard to the regulations? i.e. a 10A limited MCB feeding a 13A socket and outside lights? For info, I am intending to replace the old halogens with newer LED types so hardly any current there, but looking more closely at it I came to notice this. 

Thanks, James.

  • 0 in reply to gkenyon
    gkenyon said:
    New/replacement socket-outlet circuits require arc fault detection devices (AFDDs) and surge protection (SPD)

    Don't we always say that the Regs are not retrospective?

    I was quite happy to install SPD on the basis of discussions in here, but we have not had a problem since we moved here at the end of 1996. AFDD is a completely different matter.

    That said, I do understand that if you want to be bang up-to-date, you put in both.

    Anybody fancy £200 per circuit Eaton AFDD?

  • 0 in reply to alanblaby
    alanblaby said:
    The IET needs to show that they do work, rather than saying they recommend fitting them, without any evidence of their efficacy.

    Why 'The IET' ? If there is a problem with the product standard, that needs to be addressed, but also consider that BS 7671 is not 'written by the IET' ?

    alanblaby said:
    What are we, 4 years in now?

    No, 6 years. 'Recommended' since BS 7671:2018 for private domestic.

  • 0 in reply to Chris Pearson
    Chris Pearson said:
    Don't we always say that the Regs are not retrospective?

    Yes, and I'm being quite inflammatory, using 'required' ... for private domestic (not in HMO or HRRB) they are 'recommended' ... you can conform to BS 7671 in not fitting AFDDs on socket-outlets circuits not covered by the list (HRRB, HMO, purpose-built student accommodation, and care homes) but they are still recommended

  • 0

    The EICR may have been a satisfactory but the EICR was to the install edition in your case probably 16th or 17th edition and not 18th.

    It shouldn't have been. EICR should be based on the regs as they are at the time of the inspection regardless of what was in force at the time of original installation. Certainly people may refer back to older editions to evaluate the safety implications of non-conformities to the current edition, and non conformities that do not impact on safety wouldn't warrant a mention, but the base reference should always be the current edition.

       - Andy.

  • 0 in reply to AJJewsbury
    AJJewsbury said:
    It shouldn't have been. EICR should be based on the regs as they are at the time of the inspection regardless of what was in force at the time of original installation.

    Surely the installation can be 'satisfactory' if it does not meet all of the requirements of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022?

  • 0 in reply to gkenyon

    Surely the installation can be 'satisfactory'

    Sorry, I realize now my reply was ambiguous. I meant to say the EICR shouldn't have been done to an earlier edition of the regs (rather than the EICR shouldn't have been satisfactory).

      - Andy.

  • 0

    New/replacement socket-outlet circuits require arc fault detection devices (AFDDs) and surge protection (SPD)

    As I read the regs unless it's a Higher Risk Residential Building (e.g. >18m tall), House in Multiple Occupation, purpose built Student Accommodation or a Care Home, there's no requirement for AFDDs. There may be a recommendation, but that's not quite the same as a requirement, and I've yet to meet anyone who actually installs AFDDs commercially when they don't need to.

    I agree an SPD would likely be required, but that can be retrofitted without a complete CU change (space and aesthetics permitting) - either in a separate enclosure fed from the existing CU, or even in the supply tails (e.g. https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYREC2SPD.html)

       - Andy.

  • 0 in reply to AJJewsbury
    AJJewsbury said:
    Sorry, I realize now my reply was ambiguous. I meant to say the EICR shouldn't have been done to an earlier edition of the regs (rather than the EICR shouldn't have been satisfactory).

    Absolutely, as usual, pedantry from me, but important differentiation all the same.

  • 0 in reply to AJJewsbury
    AJJewsbury said:
    As I read the regs unless it's a Higher Risk Residential Building (e.g. >18m tall), House in Multiple Occupation, purpose built Student Accommodation or a Care Home, there's no requirement for AFDDs.

    There's a recommendation, though.


    As some see it, 'do it unless there's a good reason not to' (because you might be asked 'why' if something goes wrong?

    Kitchen ... may be full of  heavy current-using equipment, and almost certainly a fridge-freezer (in which the fire was, on the balance of probabilities, started at Grenfell) ... perhaps a good reason to use AFDD (in the opinion of the person designing the modifications to the installation)?

  • 0 in reply to gkenyon

    and almost certainly a fridge-freezer

    And most AFDDs don't work for currents below 2.5A ... which most domestic fridge freezers won't draw - so little chance of an AFDD spotting a series arc there. It might spot an parallel arc - but then an RCBO is likely to too. There again the fault might have been simple resistive heating, which nothing would have spotted.

    Cooking appliances (or showers) might be a better bet - but there's not even recommendation for AFDDs for those (unless plugged into a socket...)

       - Andy.

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