RCD types, an informed source of information?

RCD types. I'm getting more confused the more I read into it.

Ok, so we changed from Type AC to Type A, as backfed DC current from appliances could saturate the RCD coil, and stop it operating in fault conditions. Right, I can see that.

It's now been brought to our attention that some RCDs are not bi-directional, so need to be changed to bi-directional if current is likely to flow back through the RCD. Ok I can understand that more than the Type A vs AC.

Now, I'm going to fit a Heat Pump. Until recently, these were fitted on Type A RCDs, and still are by the bulk of Installers. (Manufacturers instructions are useless, one I have here in front of me says nothing about overcurrent protection, it just says a public supply of >16 and <75 amps).

Reading the Hager definitions,(linked below) it appears I need a Type A, or B, or possibly a Type F, as most HPs now use variable speed inverters. So how do I narrow it down as to what I require?

Do I go for the Type A, which Hager have listed as for  "Single phase in­vert­ers,"

The Type B, which says "In­vert­ers for speed con­trol, ups, EV char­ging where DC fault cur­rent is >6mA, PV "

Now note, they recommend the Type B for PV, so that is another I will have to change.

Or, do I go for the Type F, which says " some air con­di­tion­ing con­trol­lers us­ing vari­able fre­quency speed drives "

Clearly, there is a dilemma here. Without Manufacturers direction, I need to ensure compliance with this Countrys requirements - 7671 et al.  So the Type A could be fine, the Type B, probably, but I may need the Type F.

And, after reading the Hager explanation, I now also need a Type B bi-directional for any PV supplies.

So, how do we choose what to go for?  And If I go for a 'B', what does the Type F do differently?

And, on a similar subject, if the backfed DC current can affect the RCD on that circuit, can it also affect the other RCDs in the DB? They are all connected to a common neutral and earth, so could the backfed DC make its way through the neutral/earth to stop adjacent RCDs tripping under fault conditions if they are Type AC, or another type that can be affected in another way, say a F and A?

And, one I hinted at a few weeks ago, what happens when you fit a new DB, and find out one of the largest DB suppliers does not do a Type B or F?

Personally, I think this is getting to be a real mess, that's why people are still putting in Type A's, when, if reading into it, a B or F is required, but, actually finding out what is required is so difficult.

Hager link: hager.com/.../selection-of-rcd-types

  • I had a similar dilemma. It was like getting blood out of a stone when it came to nailing down the heat pump manufacturer's recommendation. I highlighted the various problems with VFDs and RCDs to them (Nibe - a Swiss company I think) and they came back and recommended a type B RCD which I fitted as a stand-alone exclusively for the unit itself. After that, they informed me that they were updating their installation instructions to include this requirement! Fancy that! ME having to educate THEM! God knows how many so-called uni-degree'd clever people work for that organisation, yet a lowly non-degree'd wire monkey like myself had to draw this issue to their attention!

    Chuck a stand alone type B in and forget it.

  • RCD manufacturer Doepke said in this article “Electrical installers do not have access to the HP manufacturer’s inverter design characteristics and consequently cannot make the decision to use Type F in place of Type B, without the agreement of the HP manufacturer.”

    professional-electrician.com/.../

  • As it happens, I called into the wholesalers today to see if they could get a type B. They couldnt get a Type B RCBO, but Hager , Fusebox and another (Lewden?) all do Type B RCDs.

    So it'll be a Fusebox or Lewden separate box, as the Hager one was £300+, with the others at around £115.

    Of course, that would be 2 of them, as PV is recommended to be on its own RCD, so it will cost more for the correct circuit protection for two circuits than it has for a 10 way Hager RCBO board.

    I do wonder why I bother, as if this was for a customer, there's no way I'd get the job, as there will be someone who would be quite happy to fit it all on Type A RCBOs, at £300+ cheaper, and be totally oblivious that they were not complying.

  • Big metal boxes mounted outside and supplied with electricity represent a potential hazard. To reduce the risk of an accident, the electrical installation and method of protection (ADS), must meet the specific requirements of BS 7671, to the letter.

     From article referred to by Sparkingchip.

    Given the issues with maloperation of incorrectly selected rcds and possible damage to the heat pump itself, one would think that the best advice would be to dump the rcd altogether. 
    I am sure a big metal box could easily be protected against faults occurring in the first place or some other material used. A neat bit of surface wiring would set aside the regulatory imperative arising from flush mounting cables. 

    Seems we can’t do anything without a rcd nowadays. Maybe there is a vested interest at work, all kinds of highly unlikely fault situations hanging around like scary halloween masks! 

  • That link is broken.  It gives a 404 Not Found.

  • Try Chint - that's what I ended up with, everyone else's brands were quoted as telephone numbers in excess of £600 +VAT ea. I think the Chint came in at just under £100.

  • Agree. Too much overthinking going on. Just fit a double pole RCD in it's own enclosure and work from there. Too much Paralysis By Analysis going on these days.

  •  

    Regards the requirement for RCD protection you said 

    “For cables supplying the HP at <50mm from the surface.

    Agreed, If I could get a SWA through the house, no need for RCD protection, but then do we need to RCD the control wires? There will be at least 3 control wires going through the property, ELV, so presumably no need for RCD protection.”

    Is it always possible to connect a heat pump using a 30 mA RCD as required to protect cables concealed in walls?

    What if, the  heat pump needs a 300 mA RCD and will trip a 30 mA RCD?

    www.doepke.co.uk/.../Techpub-23.pdf

  • A neat bit of surface wiring would set aside the regulatory imperative arising from flush mounting cables. 

    Or use BS 8436 (nail shield) cables ... much easier to work with than SWA and can then flushed without needing 30mA RCDs (just make sure the MCB is properly co-ordinated).

      - Andy.

  • That may be a solution for omitting 30 mA RCD protection for control wiring concealed in walls, but not concealing the supply circuit in a wall as it’s only made up to 4.0 mm which is rated at 30 amps Method B.

    www.elandcables.com/.../downloadpdf.ashx