I have come across many new builds where they would not meet the requirements at the time of installation.
We have brought this up with the developer / installer,they have mostly quoted best practise guide 4 saying that it's only a C3.
The way I read bpg4 is that it's for coding when the instalation was to a previous edition of the regulations.
What recourse is there in this situation?
So if the erection started before 31 July 2020, the EVSE need only comply with BS 7671:2018.
I have not been asked to issue eicr in place of a missing eic.
Then what are you doing please?
If not then do we work to best practise guide 4?
You may find it helpful. Which particular item(s) are relevant please?
I believe that if a DESIGN was carried out to previous versions of the regulations and that design is approved by someone. Then that's what gets installed.
I don't know about houses, but having been involved in building several railway stations - those new ones were designed WAAAAY before the completion dates - to earlier versions of the regulations.
We installed as per the design, and advised the updated changes. Inevitably, those changes were not generally implemented.
The earlier versions of the regulation were hardly dangerous though. The 16th edition in 2000 for example is perfectly safe (IMO). Someone has decided that Improvements to safety meant more regulations - please note that this is not an attack on those that write the regs, as I know Graham and his crew will read this.
the 16th was quite safe for the equipment at the time, now we have solar , evse , heat pumps, induction hobs,led lighting and more
So if the erection started before 31 July 2020, the EVSE need only comply with BS 7671:2018.
I can tell you from my experience of applying BS 7671 during projects that span 15 or more years from start of design to completion of all of the works, the contract is king. The contract cites a 'base date' for standards and legislation. Any changes are considered 'variations', and it's up to the parties whether the variations are agreed.
This is why BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 only tells you when that version commences, and when the previous version will be withdrawn.
the 16th was quite safe for the equipment at the time, now we have solar , evse , heat pumps, induction hobs,led lighting and more
It was considered safe at the time. To a large extent, your installation may still be safe. It's what happens if it gets damaged that is the problem. For example, you trip over a flex of an electric heater. The line conductor pulls out from its terminal and comes into contact with the case. You then pick it up. RCD is now your friend. Alternatively, your parents may have taught you to switch off at the socket and remove the plug before investigating an appliance which has stopped working.
I agree that solar and EVSE place additional demands upon an installation, which is sufficient on its own to justify a new edition or amendment.
However, if you add solar or EVSE to your existing 16th Edn installation, you do not need to bring the whole lot up to 18th+3.
Even if you do add solar or EVSE, etc., it may only require a new DB. If that means that your lighting circuits are now RCD protected, that is a bonus.
This is a loop hole that needs to be closed or at least tightened up.
I don't think this can be done in standards, because standards can't over-ride contracts, or the legal process.
This is a loop hole that needs to be closed or at least tightened up. Building control also needs to make sure the rules are not being stretched. House builders should be made by NHBC and UK law to maintain a copy of EIC for the 10 year period that the warranty applies.
Perhaps a change to AD-P or the equivalent publication in devolved nations would be the route?
However, it's really difficult, because, as I alluded to in other posts in this thread, many construction programmes are longer than the 4-year update cycles necessary for BS 7671 (to accommodate timely incorporation of CENELEC Harmonized Documents) ... with major infrastructure programmes spanning a number of 4-year cycles.
Is having a reference to 20 year old regulations really significantly more dangerous ? As I mentioned in another thread, when something first comes out there tends to be a flurry of chaotic activity - look at the weird looking cars in the museums from pre about 1910, or early computers. Then things settle down - cars have 4 cylinders, forward facing door hinges and burn petrol ignited with electricity, and have done since about 1930.
There are then only more and more nice to have trifling improvements, unless like electric cars there is a discontinuity in the way things are done, then we get a burst of chaos again.
The big issues got bottomed out quite early with the wiring regs - earthing of socket circuits from 1939 onwards, lights from about 1970 (plenty of those 2 core lights are still giving good service still though ! )
The ESCQR references are as follows
For new connections
A distributor shall not give his consent ..., where he has reasonable grounds for believing that—
(a)the consumer’s installation, street electrical fixture or other distributor’s network fails to comply with British Standard Requirements or these Regulations; or
(b)the connection itself will not be so constructed, installed, protected and used or arranged for use, so as to prevent as far as is reasonably practicable, danger or interruption of supply.
and for parallel and switched alternative generators
where the source of energy is part of a low voltage consumer’s installation, that installation shall comply with British Standard Requirements.
So a new connection may be refused, if the thing to be connected is not compliant, and a local generator also.
So, I'm not sure, for the purposes of the ESCQR, if much would actually change in practice if thee referred regs were up-issued.Sure it looks tidier, but what is the actual technical issue ?
We would still not permit CNE load-side of metering, we'd still allow a veritable alphabet soup of permissible supply earthing arrangements, we'd still permit but decry BS3036 fuses in basements.
Perhaps a few corner case Zs values, but for a company fuse having a 6 seconds blow time instead of 5 is not as serious as an MCB not instant tripping..
But if you are worrying for example about solar panels (as an example of a source of energy), there are other regs that mean it already should be installed to the current regs anyway.
And until the dust settles on RCD types and PEN break detection, there is very little point in introducing something that is likely to change again, into permanent statute, when we are likely to be stuck with it until 2040 something if you want a 20 year update cycle.
I'd quite like to see 3 phase supplies more common in homes or perhaps some sites supplied at either 400/690 or even 690/1k3 instead of 230/400 first to handle the likely higher loads of heat pumps and vehicle charging.
But again, nothing to trouble Parliament with.
Mike.
PS To some of us, 20 years feels really not all that long ;-)
house construction style and designs are changing more frequent than 5 years
It appears to be possible to construct a new house in a matter of weeks, but at what stage are the detailed designs finalised?
There is a rather twee faux antique development going up a few miles north of here, which has clearly been many years in the making. The brochures, etc. are very vague on timelines and a lot of the pictures probably owe a lot to AI, but it would seem that the last houses will be built some years after the first ones.
As Graham keeps reminding us, it is all in the contract(s) and presumably developers on this scale know how to deal with it.
House builders should be made by NHBC and UK law to maintain a copy of EIC for the 10 year period that the warranty applies.
I am not a fan of making anybody do anything. Presumably there is a standard pack for the purchaser of a new home. If that includes an EIC, the owner can look after it as he or she pleases.
Where does Part P stand in relation to this? The latest versionI can find is 2013 which refers to BS7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No 1:2011.
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