Hi,


I think the qualification issue really is a bit of a red herring - we know well that few (very few?) candidates who successfully register for CEng have Masters' degrees, and many don't have a degree at all.


And we also know that more (far more?) engineers work in IEng roles than in CEng roles.


So, as many here have heard me go on about before, what I find interesting is why industry is not more interested in IEng. Ok, we can argue that the EC hasn't "pushed" it enough, but I don't think that's really the point - industry isn't "pulling" it either. As always, my feeling is that it's because if you are in an IEng type role employers are perfectly happy (rightly or wrongly) to judge you on your CV, they don't feel they need an engineering institution to do that judging for them. And once you're in position, well your position speaks for itself.


Whereas with CEng roles, where the employer is basically having to totally rely on that person's judgement to keep them out of jail / bankruptcy (there's a potted alternative definition of the CEng criteria!) then being able to prove to anyone who might ask why that person was considered competent becomes more of an issue. So being able to say "it wasn't just us that considered them competent, the EC did as well" has for very many years been seen as valuable - particularly in high risk or high profile industries.


Let's be clear that IEng roles themselves are most definitely not undervalued. As has been discussed here many times before, those who meet the IEng criteria can easily find themselves earning very comfortably more than those in CEng roles. In fact, some companies very successfully dispense with CEng roles altogether and contract them in when they need them*, which makes perfect sense - after all it's finding the work, winning it, making it happen, getting it out of the door, and getting the cash in that makes the company money. Having somebody take responsibility for the technical risk in the innovation in that work is, for most delivery organisations, just a necessary evil which doesn't appear to be directly contributing to the bottom line. Which is why I do get frustrated (oh dear. I probably shouldn't post at midnight ?)  with the idea that "people with IEngs are looked down on". No they're absolutely not. It's the IEng registration status itself that hasn't quite found it's place yet, not the person holding it.


And breathe...


So do we actually need EngTech and IEng? IMHO yes we do, even if this isn't realised widely yet in industry. Maybe the first step is for employers to swallow their pride a bit and realise that actually UKSpec is really a very good piece of guidance. Then rather than employers all making up their own competence management systems, they might appreciate that using the PEIs to help them, by accrediting all their engineering staff, will save them money and give them a better result. Having audited a fair few company competence management systems now I don't remember seeing one yet which really covers the C, D and E competences well...but again this shows that we have an uphill battle to make companies realise that these competences really do directly affect their bottom line.


Which I suppose  is going back to the EC and PEIs "pushing" IEng and EngTech more....


Final thought...it's almost become a template response for me in many draft CEng applications I've seen recently to say "this is a really good IEng application, but it needs more in A2 and B2 for CEng". What has been good is that I've started seeing noticeably more candidates replying "no problem, I'll apply for IEng then". (Of course if I think they should be applying for CEng, and it's just that the form itself needs more work, then I'll tell them!) And I suspect several of these may never in fact find themselves responsible for "innovation, creativity and change and/or [...] technical accountability for complex systems with significant levels of risk". But, because they're actually bringing in the dough, they may well end up with considerably higher "status" and pay than I or most other CEngs have.


Thanks,


Andy



* As a consultant, I have to say this is a jolly good idea too ?

Hi,


I think the qualification issue really is a bit of a red herring - we know well that few (very few?) candidates who successfully register for CEng have Masters' degrees, and many don't have a degree at all.


And we also know that more (far more?) engineers work in IEng roles than in CEng roles.


So, as many here have heard me go on about before, what I find interesting is why industry is not more interested in IEng. Ok, we can argue that the EC hasn't "pushed" it enough, but I don't think that's really the point - industry isn't "pulling" it either. As always, my feeling is that it's because if you are in an IEng type role employers are perfectly happy (rightly or wrongly) to judge you on your CV, they don't feel they need an engineering institution to do that judging for them. And once you're in position, well your position speaks for itself.


Whereas with CEng roles, where the employer is basically having to totally rely on that person's judgement to keep them out of jail / bankruptcy (there's a potted alternative definition of the CEng criteria!) then being able to prove to anyone who might ask why that person was considered competent becomes more of an issue. So being able to say "it wasn't just us that considered them competent, the EC did as well" has for very many years been seen as valuable - particularly in high risk or high profile industries.


Let's be clear that IEng roles themselves are most definitely not undervalued. As has been discussed here many times before, those who meet the IEng criteria can easily find themselves earning very comfortably more than those in CEng roles. In fact, some companies very successfully dispense with CEng roles altogether and contract them in when they need them*, which makes perfect sense - after all it's finding the work, winning it, making it happen, getting it out of the door, and getting the cash in that makes the company money. Having somebody take responsibility for the technical risk in the innovation in that work is, for most delivery organisations, just a necessary evil which doesn't appear to be directly contributing to the bottom line. Which is why I do get frustrated (oh dear. I probably shouldn't post at midnight ?)  with the idea that "people with IEngs are looked down on". No they're absolutely not. It's the IEng registration status itself that hasn't quite found it's place yet, not the person holding it.


And breathe...


So do we actually need EngTech and IEng? IMHO yes we do, even if this isn't realised widely yet in industry. Maybe the first step is for employers to swallow their pride a bit and realise that actually UKSpec is really a very good piece of guidance. Then rather than employers all making up their own competence management systems, they might appreciate that using the PEIs to help them, by accrediting all their engineering staff, will save them money and give them a better result. Having audited a fair few company competence management systems now I don't remember seeing one yet which really covers the C, D and E competences well...but again this shows that we have an uphill battle to make companies realise that these competences really do directly affect their bottom line.


Which I suppose  is going back to the EC and PEIs "pushing" IEng and EngTech more....


Final thought...it's almost become a template response for me in many draft CEng applications I've seen recently to say "this is a really good IEng application, but it needs more in A2 and B2 for CEng". What has been good is that I've started seeing noticeably more candidates replying "no problem, I'll apply for IEng then". (Of course if I think they should be applying for CEng, and it's just that the form itself needs more work, then I'll tell them!) And I suspect several of these may never in fact find themselves responsible for "innovation, creativity and change and/or [...] technical accountability for complex systems with significant levels of risk". But, because they're actually bringing in the dough, they may well end up with considerably higher "status" and pay than I or most other CEngs have.


Thanks,


Andy



* As a consultant, I have to say this is a jolly good idea too ?