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Time to Knock IEng on the Head

IEng registration in terminal decline
  • Hi Roy, 


    I agree with you about the lack of esteem of engineers in the UK, however what is apparent is that the IEng/Engineering Technologist grade of registration has very little take up in any country. In the few countries that have mandatory registration for engineers, Engineering Technologists and Engineering Technicians are excluded from the registers. It seems business and governments are not interested in the registration and regulation of the engineering community except for those with sign-off. I still maintain that IEng is of little relevance today and the statistics bear this out. There used to be over 60,000 incorporated engineers in the UK, there are now about 25,000, a large majority of which are over 55. The Engineering Council has repositioned IEng as a purely entry level registration grade for those seeking CEng, but I doubt if there are anymore than a few thousand actually following the IEng/CEng progressive route.
  • Hi Peter,
    I can't argue with any of what you say. However, I still feel strongly, as Michael has also summarised neatly, we really do need all three levels, and not only as entry path to C.Eng, teamwork, as he rightly says.
    It's a sad position you describe, and I know the battle is highly daunting, but I really don't believe we should give up on it. As I've said before, those fighting for women's rights must have felt even more daunted at the uphill struggle they had to fight, yet they persisted and got there in the end.
    I think we have to fight the fight to turn that position round, to convince organisations and governments of the value of the tiered model, the improved engineering outcomes from having the confidence registration provides at all three levels, but just sign-off. It may not succeed in my lifetime even, but I really feel we have to try, if only for the benefit of future generations.
  • Well said Roy!
  • Ian, I don't have the broader picture sufficiently (I've only recently become PRI, and anyway, would hopefully not allow such dilution from any of my interviews - hopefully that's not just naivety) to know whether what you describe is generally the case or not, but I fully accept that these 7 people are known to you, that you are presumably in a position to judge, so I accept that, in your experience at least, what you describe is true. If this is representative of the general trend, and in the face of it, you would have to assume that it is as it is probably a good random sample, then I agree with you, this must be highly detrimental to registering such people at the appropriate level. Whilst I don't advocate an excuse for everybody to start pointing fingers, inquisition wise, maybe it would be a good idea to test this out across the whole membership by seeking a quick straw poll, anonymously, of how many people in each member's circle, they judge to have been similarly "over-registered". Or maybe it needs to be only Chartered Engineers, so that we know they are all familiar enough with the standard that should apply. If the position is seen, by this method or any other, to be the case, it really does need action to address it
  • Roy,

    A slight correction to your comments. Ian said "a number of people in the last 7 years" rather than 7 people. He hasn't actually said how many so it could be rather more than 7, or alternatively could be less.

    I think with any system that relies on individual judgement there will be variations. The PRI introduces some measure of control by ensuring there are two interviewers, thereby reducing this variation, but I am convinced that there will still be those who are awarded registration who probably shouldn't be, just as there will be those who should be awarded registration who are declined (and in my role as a PRA this is something that I am aware, at least in my opinion, has also happened). The important thing is to have the measures in place to minimise these occurences, and while I feel the IET system doesn't always work as it should, I still believe it has a surprisingly high success rate.

    I would disagree with doing a straw poll of Chartered Engineers because I disagree that they are all familiar with the standard that should be applied. Many have only studied UK Spec once, at the time that they were preparing their application, so not only are not particularly familiar with it, but what they do remember is of an out of date version (or in the case of Chartered Engineers who gained registration at the time that I did which was pre-UK Spec, may not know it at all). What you need for your straw poll is those who have kept up to date with the development of UK Spec, so those who have become Mentors, PRAs, Industrial Partners, etc., but I would omit those who do the interviews as this would be like marking your own homework.

    Other than that I definitely agree with your comments.

    Alasdair
  • Ian, first of all, apologies for misreading/misquoting your post, as had been pointed out to me, the result of a too rapid scan whilst travelling.
    But much more importantly, I am desperately sorry that this is affecting you in this way. It's awful to be so undervalued and to be bullied by your employer. What I don't understand is that surely, unless it's in order to "sell" you to clients/customers, why they are placing more credence on registration status than on performance in the job. Registration is certainly massively helpful when appointing someone new to a role or company, but they surely have your track record and your team members available now from which to turn a judgement. Sounds like a simple excuse to hold down your pay and prospects. Maybe time to seek alternative employment?
    Ironically, one of the things I almost commented previously, but decided to keep it, is that your employer has mauve potential to influence these outcomes. When we get applications submitted, and in particular when candidates get to interview, there is always a danger of over claiming, and whilst we can usually ask questions that will reveal this for knowledge and understanding, plus most other aspects, if someone brazenly claims innovation by claiming that they were the ones who developed an innovative approach, when in fact they only took instruction to design in line with the approach given them by somebody else, the only defence we have against a brazen untruth is the testimony of referees, and the employer will usually be one of those, so if they endorse that claim, there's little we can do to disregard it unless it reveals itself in their demeanor. So you may be right that they have been "over-registered" and should be I.Eng if they don't innovate, but if your employer has supported that in their case, then they will probably, at the very least, have been given the benefit of the doubt, or it may not have been evident at all.
    Conversely, I'm trying to understand what the gap is preventing you attaining C.Eng, I presume you feel you can beat them on UK&U, or you wouldn't be telling us what you are, I presume, as I think you're telling me you are their manager/team leader, that you would meet the technical management criteria more than they could, that you feel you have the people and communication skills required, and the "soft" skills of ethics, inclusivity, etc, then the only aspect I can see holding you back is demonstrating innovation in the application of your skills, and if you are giving the instructions that they follow as to what solutions to implement, then that should also be greater than for them, so the only thing I can see that's left is of your employer is not confirming this to be the case, and is giving a biased reference, negative in your case, positive in theirs. Which brings me back to where I started. Have you discussed this with a PRA? If not, I suggest you do so urgently. I feel sure that, if what you describe is accurate, you really should be able to attain this wth the right PRA support.
  • Alasdair, thanks for the correction, yes, I did misread it due to too rapid a scan while traveling.
    I take all of your points fully, and I do very much agree with you - in fact it was my first reaction that, whilst the system isn't perfect (we'd need 3 hour interviews to ensure it approached perfect) I don't believe it lets us down too often. As you say, without a doubt there are some slip through who somehow don't get picked up and so get registration when perhaps they shouldn't have, but that there are also instances of the opposite, though they may not be equal due to a tendency to give the benefit of the doubt. Also, I do feel that PRA's are a massive part of the answer to that, so if a PRA has done their job well, this should reduce the likelihood of an undeserved unfavorable outcome, so is another reason the numbers on this side are not equal to the opposite case.
    Add the quality control applied post-interview and the appeals process, this should really hammer such instances down to a bare minimum. But those who don't consult a PRA are always going to be at greater risk of an undeserved negative outcome.
    It would be good to gain a confirmation of what we both believe though, si the straw poll could still be highly worth doing and I take your point about who should be polled, including agreeing that it shouldn't include PRI's.
    As I've said in a further reply to Ian, the one thing I've already seen in my as yet limited interviews, the biggest danger area I see at interview is the input from referees. We really are heavily reliant on it to confirm authenticity and validity of actual performance, yet they often don't really understand the criteria against which their reference is supposed to a cover, or they are not as impartial as we would like, or both, as I said in that reply, we can uncover some of that in interview, but we are no match for an individual who can blatantly overclaim on the B competencies, claiming to have been responsible for innovation when in fact they have only followed direction, if the referee, especially the employer, endorses it, and the candidate has that ability to look you straight in the eye while maintaing a blatant lie, there is little we can do to filter that out.
  • Now there's an idea!
  • It is interesting to review where our views were 8-9 years ago. I was trying to champion and reinvigorate the IEng category which was at a very low ebb. Others argued that it was a hopeless cause or even that it was counter-productive by perpetuating a failed system. The numbers of new IEng registrations did increase and I also supported The Engineering Council’s “proud to be IEng” campaign. Unfortunately, it also became clear that there was no consensus within the Engineering Council family about what IEng actually represented. My understanding was that it was a different but equally valuable type of engineer, having a more practical in orientation rather than the more academic CEng, with the two overlapping in the workplace, having equal standing as engineering managers (often operations versus design).

     



    However, other institutions and even some within the IET took the view that IEng was an “assistant” or “part-qualified” CEng. One of the largest PEIs rarely registers an IEng and a number of others would take the view that only Chartered Engineers are “proper engineers”. The IIE had become one of the largest PEI’s by 2005, but as a minority within the IET its influence and distinctive IEng position dissipated. Although I wasn’t particularly active at the time, it seemed to me that with the introduction of a competency based system (UK-SPEC) that the distinctive IEng proposition probably wasn’t that useful anyway, because in the workplaces and amongst the people of my acquaintance, there was little meaningful, consistent and reliable difference between Chartered and Incorporated Engineers. 

     



    IEng (Tech Eng) had come into being mainly to serve those who became excluded from Chartership on academic grounds. I took it because it was what I could get, having completed an Apprenticeship, HNC and Certificate in Industrial Management (7 years part-time study) rather than an undergraduate degree. Opportunity subsequently offered me a “second string” to my career, including a warm welcome on to a newly developed MSc course and eventual Chartership. At that time, had I wanted Chartered Engineer, then I would have had to enrol on an undergraduate engineering  degree course with 18 year olds, doing maths, maths and more maths – very useful for a thirty-year old manager! 

     



    As UK-SPEC was being reviewed for 2013 it was made clear that at Engineering Council  “different but equally valuable was dead, long live progression”. Subsequently using whatever levers were available to it Engineering Council placed the three categories into "gold, silver and bronze" order. CEng was presumed to be superior to and to subsume the other categories, on the basis that it was the most “learned” and even the most “managerial”. Many experienced IEng were insulted, some resigned and I nearly followed, but decided instead to cease using the IEng post-nominal (along with others that I used). In the work that I currently do, I have to accept the authority of Engineering Council even when I might disagree and my registration has some value in that context. I also recognise that Engineering Council is de-facto the “Chartered Engineers Council”, that allows for the registration of two subsidiary categories.  Perhaps the Uff report may lead to some change, but if there is then it needs to have some obvious benefits to everyone in future. Past grievances are just that, EC kicked me so I just kicked them right back. Do we escalate such squabbles or move on?

     



    As I see it the duty of the IET is to serve all Engineers and Technicians with equal respect. This includes to some extent the wider community of practitioners who are not members and those members who are not registrants, as part of our charitable remit. I expect each type of registrant to contribute professionally within their capabilities which often overlap and may require a Technician to advise or lead a Chartered Engineer where they are more expert.  We should enable enhanced recognition for enhanced achievement, including the widely recognised and valued Chartered designation. However whenever we divide, we risk factionalism.

     



    Comparison with other professions has been made, but we should note that the requirements for chartered recognition in the UK are broadly set at graduate level (like IEng). The recently approved “Chartered Building Engineer” designation illustrates this. We have chosen to benchmark CEng at masters level, perhaps influenced by longer university course in other countries or in a search for more “elite” (academic) status, but we should remember that most existing CEng don’t hold a relevant masters. I see no evidence that the “restricted profession-social status” angle has made any progress in my lifetime.  If the profession wants to restrict CEng only to those “Consulting Engineers” operating independently, or as the head of major design led teams, then perhaps their status could be raised, but many incumbent CEng would have to be excluded. 

     



    My suggestion is that we emphasise the service that Engineering gives to society collectively, to which experts and leaders are valuable but humble servants. I used to sympathise a little with the idea of restricting the title engineer, until I realised that I would probably be barred myself and that many of the proponents of this argument were just academic snobs or even old fashioned (Cleese, Barker, Corbett sketch) social snobs. To those who don’t harbour such sentiments, I would suggest, that they stop being so needy of social status, employers and society in general love Engineers and Technicians with a professional attitude when we give them a benefit. Obviously we can’t match the medical profession in that direction, but we can compete with most others.

     



    Returning to IEng, the category retains some market value in parts of the engineering community. However like most endangered species sightings are rare outside the niches where it is more commonly found. These would include the Armed Forces for senior non-commissioned and less senior commissioned officers in technical corps, MOD and some infrastructure management organisations . Holding the registration (and the related PEI membership) always has the potential to create a positive impression in well-informed or sympathetic circles. However, as Chris Downie has described the potential benefits are typically much less than CEng (even though the capabilities overlap) and there are potential downsides where ignorance or negative prejudice exists. Unfortunately this is quite widespread. EC IEng promotion campaign 2011;  “adds Jon Prichard;  The campaign is purely setting out to ensure that the value of registration as an Incorporated Engineer achieves the recognition and standing similar to that which is enjoyed by those with CEng status.  We would also like to dispel some of the myths that seem to surround IEng, many of which were based on misconception and prejudice.”  In the intervening period, I haven’t detected an improvement and the subsequent actions of Engineering Council to promote a hierarchy (which few people actually progress through) have probably inadvertently diminished the “brand” further, potentially reinforcing any negative stereotyping.

     



    Degree (and some higher) Apprentices will be well placed to meet the IEng standard in early career, but may eschew the proposition if it seems to position them unfairly as “second class” relative to those from “purer” academic pathways. Also a wide range of mid-career engineers often moving from Supervisory Technician to Engineering Manager roles still find their way to IEng in modest numbers. In addition more recently, some graduate trainees are being encouraged by mentors/employers to take IEng as a “first stepping stone”.  On this basis I would speculate that perhaps there is potential for a viable and sustainable IEng cohort of perhaps 10000 (with many passing through) in around ten years?  This is low penetration of the potential market for practising “mainstream” engineers, as has always been the case except for perhaps a modest “purple patch” in the 1980s.

     



    I would advocate a new alternative proposition that encourages all those who aspire to registration as professional engineers, to first work towards “registered engineer”, a standard of competence similar to the current UK-SPEC IEng. In academic terms this means at “degree level” but with work-based learning accepted as also making a valid contribution. Chartered Engineer recognition should only be available to those who have undertaken a significant period of practice as a “registered engineer” supervised by their professional institution. All professionals should be encouraged to engage voluntarily in a periodic review at an interval of their choosing. Employers and other relevant stakeholders should be educated to ask “how was your last review”. All of this should be conducted in a supportive way designed to nurture and encourage professional growth, not the petty division and one-upmanship, that so often seems to characterise our current approach.

     



    I have left out Technicians who perform a different but equally valuable often overlapping with engineers, in order to keep it simpler. There is a separate discussion about how we best serve those who want a form of professional affiliation, the IET does seem committed to this, but most of the Engineering Council family and other representatives such as the Royal Academy are just “cut from a different cloth”.  Aspects of trade association and trades union activities often evolved to serve parts of this market which is more vocational than academic in its nature.  Also I haven’t mentioned “Technologist” because the term has no clearly distinctive meaning in the UK, where the academic distinctions created by the Washington and Sydney Accords, or by local practice such as in North America might create a distinction.

     



    My proposition for engineers would require the graceful retirement of the IEng brand with the option of easy transfer or honorary retention. It is nearly ten years since an Engineering Council management “retreat” decided that registration should be “progressive”.  All that I am suggesting is a “fair progressive” system in which every professional engineer has to progress and is expected to maintain a level of ongoing engagement. Rates of progress will vary, as different forms of academic preparation, vocational training and career development create the huge variety of different specialisms and optimisations that are the landscape of engineering and technology.  What we should be talking about is the future not the past.  If we want more status then work together to show society the value that we bring to it, instead of fruitless internecine strife, over who wears the top hat (if we can afford one).  Performance may lead to status not vice versa!



     


  • Roy,

    It took a while to read your post, but I am glad I carried on to the end. A very good outline of the background and a clear suggestion of how we can progress on from here. I think that your proposal is one of the first I have seen that I think could be completely workable and one I feel I could wholeheartedly endorse. However let's see how others receive it.

    I would also congratulate you on taking the kick in the teeth from EC UK with dignity and working to try to rebuild the bridges rather than becoming bitter and rejecting anything EC UK are trying to do as some others have understandably done.

    Alasdair