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ARE CENG AND IENG EQUAL IN STATUS

Can we say that the CEng and IEng be considered equal titles in professional status or IEng is inferior than CEng.

As the Application Form for both CEng and IEng is same.

0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

Maybe Technologist level registration is needed. Align it to the rest of the countries Technologist?

Then disconnect the I.Eng from all the Technologist related references and make it Engineer ?

This will add to confusion..

On the other hand there are Accountants who are not Chartered Accountant.

Or allow people with proper education and experience to become Eur Eng

Moahe. M Waserman BTechEE, MCGI, CEng MBCS, MIET
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0 Peter Miller over 8 years ago

I think Moshe is right. The IEng 'brand' lacks appeal to the vast majority of potential registrants. The IET could create its own 'technologist' register to complement institute membership. I think that in recent years the Engineering Council has been more aligned to the competencies of Civil Engineers (where perhaps the IEng/CEng distinction makes sense). In other engineering sectors such as advanced manufacturing and software engineering having a chartered category and a lower incorporated category does not make sense. Hence the small numbers registering at IEng level.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

I have not seen many jobs posted wanting an Incorporated Engineer. The CV software looks at your education and so my apprenticeship and CGLI exclude me in the first sort.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

I live here in the US. My IEng means nothing and CGLI not much more. PE seems to be more critical for Civil Engineering. I went on an AutoCAD class a few years ago.The bloke teaching was a music teacher who taught himself AutoCAD designing a video tape coating machine with his brother a civil engineer! I doubt he could have applied for a job at the plant he was designing for!

Draughting here is a $15-$25/hr job. He hired schoolboys to do the work($10/hr). It seems knowing the ins and outs of the software is more important than actual technical knowledge.

Open a business, provide a service, invent and produce widgets and noone cares about your qualifications. Apply for a job doing the same - no chance..
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0 Chris SF Chew over 8 years ago

As far as employers and customers are concerned it is your service that meets their needs. On the other hand when they want to select a good service provider they may want to see your qualification and work experience.

It will be wonderful to be able to achieve competency in work and get recognised as well.

Chris Chew
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

I would
like to add to the discussion that IET and other PEI's participate
in accreditation of the Engineering degree programs in Universities
and Institutes.

This type
of professional accreditation is instrumental in the formation of
an Engineer.

"Accreditation is awarded to
higher education programmes that meet the educational requirements
of the UK Standard for Professional Engineering Competence
(UK-SPEC) as outlined in the Accreditation of Higher Education
Programmes now in its third edition (AHEP3). It centres on a review
of a programme’s content and delivery and includes areas such as
relevance, coherence, challenge, assessment, staffing, quality
assurance and resources. "

The focus of IET
accreditation is to ensure that the programme delivers all
the AHEP learning outcomes. AHEP has been developed, and
is regularly updated, by the Engineering Council on behalf of the
engineering profession, including employers and engineering
educators.
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0 Peter Miller over 8 years ago

Roy's appraisal of the IEng issue sums up where we are and how we got here. Unfortunately there is no concensus on the way forward. It seems to me that the Institutes with fewer numbers of incorporated engineers are actually in the driving seat and more likely to push for further weakening of the competencies required for IEng and I don't think the IET or the IMechE consider it an enough of an issue to upset the apple cart. The latest Engineering Council report shows the IEng to be the only category where new registration numbers have decreased and this is from a very low base. If you look at it objectively IEng is only worth achieving if you feel you can upgrade to CEng with 2 to 3 years.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

At the time Technician Engineer the predecessor of IEng gained importance and recognition, there was a need for it.

The question to ask what it offered then that lead to creation of IEng and the increase in IEng registrants in comparison to today?

Some employers feel that experience and degree at times HND is sufficient.

I.Eng has to offer something that employers will feel has value added.

The UK SPEC for IEng impressive. I think the additional accreditation to the I.Eng is offering value to both the Engineer and the Employer.

Yet in today's market it has to generate higher interest from the employers.And this will drive the Engineers to register.

I think a first step to the right direction is to allow I.Eng that are meeting the Eur Ing requirements to become Eur Ing.

This will elevate the status of I.Eng overnight.

Not all CEng can register as Eur Ing the same will be for I.Eng.

I'm wandering how would Chartered Technologist do as a qualification offered by Eng C

Moshe Michael Waserman BTechEE, MCGI, CEng MBCS, MIET, CBT
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Sparkingchip

To Moshe & Peter,
and all prospective PEs.

You have stated what I
have suspected. I had no time for IET in France except for
registration as a PE with a denigrating title. Work and transport
was too demanding for PEI activities. I could have been a leader of
an IET member PEI but had no available time. PEI work is time
consuming, you will see by the profiles of voluntary participants
that they are not in time demanding posts.

I had C Eng status
(approved and certified but not registered) with three separate
engineering career paths: nuclear diagnostic engineering,
Special Techniques – (materials engineering), energy process plant
design & construction.

These combined led me
into EPR “Surveillance” which led me into dismantling nuclear
R&D plant.

I was Tech Eng before
starting a second degree, but had already studied a master in
nuclear engineering in French. (All modern PEs should be bilingual
as in Germany or France).

I did not try to
register as C Eng IET as IET C Engs were banned in a certain UK
research centre that I wanted to return to.

Now pre-retired but on
call for a top UK engineering post, I had time to look at IET
France and IET in general. I was appalled by what has happened to
this great Institution since its raison d’être in
2006.

I could not be Eur Ing
as a had to have UK approval by ECUK C Eng registration. This is
not acceptable as you have shown; Eur Ing is BSc + 4 years
engineering experience (I Eng in the UK).

Eur Ing does not call
for sponsors, referees or interviews by peers not in your domain.
This should be banned in the UK, ECUK does not call on this
procedure, it is a left over from obscure times. Eur Ing calls for
a CV with work certificates.

From IET Council voting
details, statistically, one can analyse IET
membership.

·
One I Eng candidate; A C
Eng with HND; half are not UK or Commonwealth citizens, yet FEANI
calls on UK, PE registration, many are C Eng but do not have an
engineering Master ‘sDegree, many have BSC, others have BSc with
MBA. One is 27, with a PhD but claims to be a leading engineering
expert !

·
A few are UK with BSc
+ MSc meeting UK Spec for C Eng.

·
Many are retired thus not
eligible for C Eng which is a current working certificate not a
diploma once obtained 30 years ago.

A fellow blogger noted
that less than a third of IET
members are CEng and about 7% I Eng also, he noted that
the average age of a
registered engineer is around 60. A PEI should be run by active
members, mid career if possible, it is their future that counts not
past prestige.

There is a basic problem
here, ECUK registration requires PEs to be practicing engineers or
between contracts or on CPD. IET has many PEs that are not meeting
ECUK, UK Spec.

There is a second
problem in the UK, and “that is caused by those who (not
necessarily with ill intent) lobby to make CEng a requirement for
various roles (jobs)”. – This was a blocking point for me to return
to the UK.

·
All C Eng are in principal
signed up to a code of conduct and ethics.

·
Technicians are doing so
called “C Eng work” perfectly competently.

·
Things have to
change.

·
IET needs to evolve to
fit the environment it finds itself in.

·
All PEIs need to
change

·
ECUK needs to be
changed

That's my opinion)

Some one stated
:

“Voluntary recognition
of all those trained and practising professionally as engineers and
technicians in their own eyes is enough of a raison d’etre, but our
collective actions have put more capable people off from joining
IET than they have encouraged”.

“The IET is a stable and
reasonably successful organisation, I hope that it uses that
position of strength wisely and well for public good”.

I can only agree; this
sums up a feeling and a situation that exists generally not just my
view.

We have Brexit, Europe
is near to implosion, there is a forecast energy crisis; we are in
an unstable political era.

One thing is certain;
we need professional
engineers now and tomorrow. It is too late for me; but you can
do something and you need more like minded support.

The support is there
inside IET and PEIs and outside.

Outside there are
potential PEs that need to be recognised and guided, not looked
down upon or mocked.

Youngsters need to be
encouraged, educated and trained in engineering (not just
computing).

What could be done today
is to recognise :

BSc = 4 years
engineering work as a UK acceptance for Eur Ing.
Then you can let I Eng
drift away.

C Eng needs to be
rethought, there are too many UK stalwarts that are C Eng but do
not make the grade by UK Spec, just look at IET council prospective
members.

EC UK and the consortium
of UK PEIs need to be reviewed. Bonne chance for any
one taking on that challenge, but you can write and question
it.

I assume that IET
professionals will now ZAP this blog or threaten me again, but what
I see; is seen by all those who are not PE registered. There is a
real problem with this PEI system, it does not meet industries
needs, it meets the ego and needs of a few that want to protect
their status.

German, French non PEI
engineers are proud to be engineers, have no titles but have good
positions and very good salaries. I’ll take the money and
leave the prestige.

Safety and
security, protection of the public
from engineers’ wrong doings; that needs a PE professional register
and assurance. That is the real question.   -
Engineers need tickets.

Moshe :

« I think a first
step to the right direction is to allow I.Eng that are meeting the
Eur Ing requirements to become Eur Ing. »

This will upset the
diehard C Eng Eur Ing who wants status not access to work in
Europe.

Moshe :

“This will elevate the
status of I.Eng overnight.

Not all CEng can register as Eur Ing the same will be for
I.Eng.

I'm wandering how would Chartered Technologist do as a
qualification offered by Eng C »

No - the I Eng has the
status BSc + 4 years engineering work. It will lower the status of
C Eng.

Secondly the HNC + 2
ECTS will not be accepted.

Peter :

« Unfortunately
there is no concensus on the way forward. »

As long as we have C Eng
that are not working and not meeting UK Spec, there will always be
an objection to change.

“The latest Engineering
Council report shows the I Eng to be the only category where new
registration numbers have decreased and this is from a very low
base. If you look at it objectively IEng is only worth achieving if
you feel you can upgrade to CEng with 2 to 3
years.”

Who wants a degrading
title and a disrespect from C Engs, it is normal that PEs with I
Eng status do not register unless they are taking the mature route
to C Eng; with the objective of getting past restrictive HR
recruiting demanding C Eng only ( even C Eng specific, not
IET).

When I applied for new
contracts, I would state BSc (C Eng applied for).

I used I Eng in Europe
because it was an engineering title that no one could
understand.

The question was asked :
what do we need from
PEIs (not just IET);

It is to clean up this
PE registration mess, then get down to promoting the
professions of engineering and technology, setting up data
bases for technical support , get out and convert younger
generations to technology and then to support them.

Recognise all
professional engineers as different, important and necessary to the
engineering projects or R&D.

It is not a handful of
PEs that will change things, but if the seeds are sown you could
reap the harvest in autumn.

There is a young man in
France who is doing the same sort of action, he started a few
months ago on his own, he could be president
soon.

BREXIT : I have no
political rights, no Eur Ing no PEI registration at my level, but I
have a good engineering record.

Counting on the next
generation

John Gowman
MIET
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Sparkingchip

To Moshe & Peter,
and all prospective PEs.

You have stated what I
have suspected. I had no time for IET in France except for
registration as a PE with a denigrating title. Work and transport
was too demanding for PEI activities. I could have been a leader of
an IET member PEI but had no available time. PEI work is time
consuming, you will see by the profiles of voluntary participants
that they are not in time demanding posts.

I had C Eng status
(approved and certified but not registered) with three separate
engineering career paths: nuclear diagnostic engineering,
Special Techniques – (materials engineering), energy process plant
design & construction.

These combined led me
into EPR “Surveillance” which led me into dismantling nuclear
R&D plant.

I was Tech Eng before
starting a second degree, but had already studied a master in
nuclear engineering in French. (All modern PEs should be bilingual
as in Germany or France).

I did not try to
register as C Eng IET as IET C Engs were banned in a certain UK
research centre that I wanted to return to.

Now pre-retired but on
call for a top UK engineering post, I had time to look at IET
France and IET in general. I was appalled by what has happened to
this great Institution since its raison d’être in
2006.

I could not be Eur Ing
as a had to have UK approval by ECUK C Eng registration. This is
not acceptable as you have shown; Eur Ing is BSc + 4 years
engineering experience (I Eng in the UK).

Eur Ing does not call
for sponsors, referees or interviews by peers not in your domain.
This should be banned in the UK, ECUK does not call on this
procedure, it is a left over from obscure times. Eur Ing calls for
a CV with work certificates.

From IET Council voting
details, statistically, one can analyse IET
membership.

·
One I Eng candidate; A C
Eng with HND; half are not UK or Commonwealth citizens, yet FEANI
calls on UK, PE registration, many are C Eng but do not have an
engineering Master ‘sDegree, many have BSC, others have BSc with
MBA. One is 27, with a PhD but claims to be a leading engineering
expert !

·
A few are UK with BSc
+ MSc meeting UK Spec for C Eng.

·
Many are retired thus not
eligible for C Eng which is a current working certificate not a
diploma once obtained 30 years ago.

A fellow blogger noted
that less than a third of IET
members are CEng and about 7% I Eng also, he noted that
the average age of a
registered engineer is around 60. A PEI should be run by active
members, mid career if possible, it is their future that counts not
past prestige.

There is a basic problem
here, ECUK registration requires PEs to be practicing engineers or
between contracts or on CPD. IET has many PEs that are not meeting
ECUK, UK Spec.

There is a second
problem in the UK, and “that is caused by those who (not
necessarily with ill intent) lobby to make CEng a requirement for
various roles (jobs)”. – This was a blocking point for me to return
to the UK.

·
All C Eng are in principal
signed up to a code of conduct and ethics.

·
Technicians are doing so
called “C Eng work” perfectly competently.

·
Things have to
change.

·
IET needs to evolve to
fit the environment it finds itself in.

·
All PEIs need to
change

·
ECUK needs to be
changed

That's my opinion)

Some one stated
:

“Voluntary recognition
of all those trained and practising professionally as engineers and
technicians in their own eyes is enough of a raison d’etre, but our
collective actions have put more capable people off from joining
IET than they have encouraged”.

“The IET is a stable and
reasonably successful organisation, I hope that it uses that
position of strength wisely and well for public good”.

I can only agree; this
sums up a feeling and a situation that exists generally not just my
view.

We have Brexit, Europe
is near to implosion, there is a forecast energy crisis; we are in
an unstable political era.

One thing is certain;
we need professional
engineers now and tomorrow. It is too late for me; but you can
do something and you need more like minded support.

The support is there
inside IET and PEIs and outside.

Outside there are
potential PEs that need to be recognised and guided, not looked
down upon or mocked.

Youngsters need to be
encouraged, educated and trained in engineering (not just
computing).

What could be done today
is to recognise :

BSc = 4 years
engineering work as a UK acceptance for Eur Ing.
Then you can let I Eng
drift away.

C Eng needs to be
rethought, there are too many UK stalwarts that are C Eng but do
not make the grade by UK Spec, just look at IET council prospective
members.

EC UK and the consortium
of UK PEIs need to be reviewed. Bonne chance for any
one taking on that challenge, but you can write and question
it.

I assume that IET
professionals will now ZAP this blog or threaten me again, but what
I see; is seen by all those who are not PE registered. There is a
real problem with this PEI system, it does not meet industries
needs, it meets the ego and needs of a few that want to protect
their status.

German, French non PEI
engineers are proud to be engineers, have no titles but have good
positions and very good salaries. I’ll take the money and
leave the prestige.

Safety and
security, protection of the public
from engineers’ wrong doings; that needs a PE professional register
and assurance. That is the real question.   -
Engineers need tickets.

Moshe :

« I think a first
step to the right direction is to allow I.Eng that are meeting the
Eur Ing requirements to become Eur Ing. »

This will upset the
diehard C Eng Eur Ing who wants status not access to work in
Europe.

Moshe :

“This will elevate the
status of I.Eng overnight.

Not all CEng can register as Eur Ing the same will be for
I.Eng.

I'm wandering how would Chartered Technologist do as a
qualification offered by Eng C »

No - the I Eng has the
status BSc + 4 years engineering work. It will lower the status of
C Eng.

Secondly the HNC + 2
ECTS will not be accepted.

Peter :

« Unfortunately
there is no concensus on the way forward. »

As long as we have C Eng
that are not working and not meeting UK Spec, there will always be
an objection to change.

“The latest Engineering
Council report shows the I Eng to be the only category where new
registration numbers have decreased and this is from a very low
base. If you look at it objectively IEng is only worth achieving if
you feel you can upgrade to CEng with 2 to 3
years.”

Who wants a degrading
title and a disrespect from C Engs, it is normal that PEs with I
Eng status do not register unless they are taking the mature route
to C Eng; with the objective of getting past restrictive HR
recruiting demanding C Eng only ( even C Eng specific, not
IET).

When I applied for new
contracts, I would state BSc (C Eng applied for).

I used I Eng in Europe
because it was an engineering title that no one could
understand.

The question was asked :
what do we need from
PEIs (not just IET);

It is to clean up this
PE registration mess, then get down to promoting the
professions of engineering and technology, setting up data
bases for technical support , get out and convert younger
generations to technology and then to support them.

Recognise all
professional engineers as different, important and necessary to the
engineering projects or R&D.

It is not a handful of
PEs that will change things, but if the seeds are sown you could
reap the harvest in autumn.

There is a young man in
France who is doing the same sort of action, he started a few
months ago on his own, he could be president
soon.

BREXIT : I have no
political rights, no Eur Ing no PEI registration at my level, but I
have a good engineering record.

Counting on the next
generation

John Gowman
MIET
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Vote Up 0 Vote Down

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ARE CENG AND IENG EQUAL IN STATUS

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