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ARE CENG AND IENG EQUAL IN STATUS

Nouman Abid Chuhan
Can we say that the CEng and IEng be considered equal titles in professional status or IEng is inferior than CEng.

As the Application Form for both CEng and IEng is same.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    John,


    "Engineering Council UK (ECUK) sets standards of professional competence and ethics for engineers, technologists and technicians. "


    Do you mean IEng when you state Techlogists ?
  • 0
    Do you mean IEng when you state Techlogists ?)  

     
    Moshe,
    was only pointing out more or No less that confusion exists in other countries as to the title incorporated engineer, that extract I quoted was taken from the web site below:

     
    http://www.surrey.ac.uk/library/subjects/electronicengineering/

    Are CEng and IEng Equal in status, don’t think so IEng is not well known to the general public or even within  the engineering community. My opinion is that the IEng does not want something for nothing not a grandfather to CEng only wants a more recognisable title. There has always been a class distinction, think of POWER ENGINEER 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class, it does not mean what it says on the business card, but there it is.

    I would settle for lower case if that what’s needed.

    CEng = Chartered Engineer

    (Lower case) ceng =incorporated engineer.


    It is said that the CEng’s or Royal academy of Engineering does not like Chartered Technologist for IEngs as it sounds superior, what about Chartered Technician. What is the difference between a technologist and technician anyhow, (from an old book) the former is able to write and talk about his job in abstract, general terms, and Science and technology are essentially public activities. (That statement is still not clear to me).

    Moshe, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, and sorry for my post being all over the place

    In  this thread.

    Regards

    John

     

    ENGINEER 1st, 2nd and 3rd CLASS

    www.gov.mb.ca/.../power_engineer.pdf

     

  • 0
    More on the incorporated engineer / Technologist
    United Kingdom
    The United Kingdom has a decades-long tradition of producing engineering technologists via the apprenticeship system of learning. U.K. engineering technologists have always been designated as "engineers". The term "engineer" in the UK is used to describe the entire range of skilled worker from trades people through to the Chartered Engineer. In fact up until the 1960s professional engineers in the UK were often referred to as "Technologists" to distinguish them from scientists, technicians and craftsmen. The modern term for an engineering technologist is "incorporated engineer" (IEng), although since 2000 the normal route to achieving IEng is with a Bachelors or Honours Degree in engineering. Modern apprenticeships would normally lead to the EngTech professional qualification and with further studies at higher apprenticeship level an IEng. The title "incorporated engineer" is protected by civil law. Prior to the title "incorporated engineer," U.K. technologists were known as "technician engineers" a designation introduced in the 1960s.
    In the United Kingdom, an incorporated engineer is accepted as a "professional engineer," registered by the Engineering Council, although the term "professional engineer" has no legal meaning in the U.K., and there are no restrictions on practice. In fact, anyone in the U.K. can call themselves an "engineer" or "professional engineer" without any qualifications or proven competencies, and most U.K. skilled trades are sometimes referred to as "professional" or "accredited" engineers.
    Incorporated engineers are recognized internationally through the Sydney Accord academic agreement as engineering technologists.[13] [14] [15] One of the professional titles for engineers in the United Kingdom, recognized in the Washington Accord is the chartered engineer. The incorporated engineer is a professional engineer as declared by the Engineering Council of the United Kingdom, and the European definition as demonstrated by the prescribed title under 2005/36/EC as an "engineer."[16] The incorporated engineer operates autonomously and directs activities independently.[17] They do not necessarily need the support of chartered engineers because they are often acknowledged as full engineers in the U.K. (but not in Canada or the U.S.).[18] The United Kingdom incorporated engineer may also contribute to the design of new products and systems.
    The chartered engineer and incorporated engineer are recognized as broadly comparable in stature, but with separate functions. As a result, the chartered and incorporated engineer are placed under the same directive, 2005/36/EC. The incorporated engineer can practice autonomously without the oversight of a chartered engineer.
    Incorporated engineers currently require an IEng accredited bachelors or honours degree in engineering (prior to 1997 the B.Sc. and B.Eng. degrees satisfied the academic requirements for "chartered engineer" registration), a Higher National Certificate or diploma, City and Guilds higher diploma / Full Technological Diploma or a Foundation Degree in engineering, plus appropriate further learning to degree level or an NVQ4 or SVQ4 approved for the purpose by a licensed engineering institution.
    The academic requirements must be accompanied by the appropriate experience in employment. In addition to the experience and academic requirements, the engineering candidate must have three referees (themselves CEng or IEng) that vouch for the performance of the individual being considered for professional recognition. There are a number of alternative ways to achieve IEng status for those that do not have the necessary qualifications for applicants, that can clearly show they have achieved the same level as those with qualifications, including:
    ·         writing a technical report, based upon their experience, and demonstrate their knowledge and understanding of engineering principles;
    ·         taking City and Guilds of London Institute Graduate Diploma and Post Graduate Diploma accredited by IMechE, Institution of Engineering and Technology, andInstitution of Civil Engineers
    ·         following a work-based learning programme; or taking an academic programme specified by the institution to which they are applying.

    www.revolvy.com/.../index.php

     

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    John,


    I was IEng and later became CEng.

    I'm well familiar with the info you provided. 

    In my view the better designation is Engineer Technologist and I view IEng as such.  I was proud to be IEng and felt great achievement to be registered as such.

    From my observation for very long time, the HNC, HND was the starting credential for the Engineers in UK. Even today I see that some positions for Engineer start at HNC/HND.

    As to how IEng is equated overseas then in Ireland its an Associate Engineer, In Germany its State-certified Technician/Engineer, In Australia Engineering Technologist etc etc.

    I think what is written and the actual treatment in the industry is different.

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member



    Couldn't agree more with you Moshe.

    I was part of a 4 man team selected in 2007 by OACETT here in Ontario and approved by the CTAB (Canadian Technology Accreditation Board) to visit a local Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning for accessment of their Mechanical Engineering Technician and Technology (Design and Drafting) Curriculum profiles in order for them to gain national accreditation.

     I obviously was very interested in their curriculum profile and facilities  compared to that which I had taken while studying for ONC /HNC and was nicely surprised with what I saw of their facilities and also after comparing the program course material with CTAB requirements.


    The CTAB Technolgy profile in 2007 for Engineering Technologist was as follows:-

    "Technologists are innovative thinkers and creative problem-solvers, with broad understanding of the principles underlying their respective disciplines, and aptitude for mathematics, engineering and scientific principles. They are required to exercise independent judgement and take responsibiliy for their work."


    A technologist may be called upon to undertake a varity of duties, including:

     * designing equipment, process and systems.

    * preparing specifications, technical drawings or instructions.

    * specifying and conducting tests.

    * troubleshooting complex equipment.

    * evaluating data and preparing estimates

    * devoloping protypes and operating pilot plants.

    * resolving production or construction problems.

    * managing projects, recommending and planning activities.

    * supervising, training and administration.

    * estimating and diagnostic evaluation.


    The description of the Technologist and their possible duties here in Canada appear quite substantial, however, in my opinion ,many of the described duties over the years, have been claimed by the Professional Engineers (PEng's) in major companies, but still may be performed by Technologists under the supervision of PEng's in small and medium sized companies.



     




     

  • 0

    Moshe Waserman:

    In US only PE's and Electricians are licensed( including Architects, Civil Engineers, land surveyors and general contractors), they are guarding their turf strongly so when Technologists even mention licensing they are met with strong opposition yet offered a certification as Certified Technologist as long as they are graduates of ABET - TAC accredited Engineering Technology degree.

    I would assume that many CEngs would not be happy with Chartered Technologist as a competition. Just a thought and I can be wrong.

    Or will try to register with dual Chartered status?

     





    Moshe


    As per my information, ABET USA has two separate commissions for Engineers and Engineering Technologists, hence, awards separate titles.  In other words, the ABET does not mix up both the Engineering Graduates and Engineering Technology Graduates under each title of Engineers and Engineering Technologists.


    On the other hand, EC UK mixes up both the Engineering Graduates and Engineering Technology Graduates under each title of Chartered Engineer and Incorporated Engineer.


    In the light of above, ABET USA is very much clear to take its Engineering Technologist (having B.ET degree) into Sydney Accord and its Professional Engineer (having B.E degree) into Washington Accord whilst EC UK takes its Incorporated Engineer (having B.Tech or B.Eng) into Sydney Accord and its Chartered Engineer (having M.Tech or M.Eng) into Washington Accord.  This is a big difference of approach between ABET and EC.


    In my point of view, ABET has adopted more realistic approach than EC UK because both Engineering Technologist and Engineer are accepted as two distinct professionals in their own field.  Pakistan has also adopted the same lines.  That is why, i am saying that each profession/title may have its own degrees from Bachelor to PhD, therefore, it should not be said that Engineering Technologist is inferior than Engineer but at par.  In this regard, proper posts allocation may be done for both Engineer and Engineering Technologists at par scales in all public and private departments/employers, otherwise, this battle will continue forever.  isn't the era of specialists???


    Thank you.

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Nouman you are correct about accreditation ABET is accreditation agency, but licensing of Engineers is done by each state and there is no uniformity between the states

    Many states allow BScET to become licensed PE's. 

    Here is an example of DL university that has BET program that is accredited by ABET. WHat I find interesting is the listing in ABET database and the international agreement the degree is under.  For example good chance the following degree will be accepted for IEng registration in UK.

     

    Grantham University BScEET program accredited by ABET-TAC
    Grantham University search in ABET database:

    Find an ABET-Accredited Program | ABET

    ELECTRONICS ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY, B.S.

    Accredited, 10/01/2014-Present

    Accredited Locations:

    Main Campus

    Date of Next Comprehensive Review:

    2021-2022

    Accredited By:
    Engineering Technology Accreditation Commission

    Criteria:

    Electrical and Electronics Engineering Technology

    International Mutual Recognition Agreement:

    Sydney Accord > **




     
  • 0
    MOSHE, can you provide a link of any concerned department of any state who awards licences to both engineering and engineering technology graduates by describing the procedure.

    Secondly, has the USA adopted same process for other professionals like doctors, nurses, lawyers etc.

    You know, its really an interesting situation that licencing is not centeralize in USA.
  • 0
    Hello 


    I have take some data from the ABET USA website regarding accredited 4 years BS Programs both in Engineering and Engineering Technology (please see separate files as attachment).  Given data reveals that 4 years BS Engineering Program is linked with Washington Accord whilst 4 years BS Engineering Technology Program is linked with Sydney Accord.  Hence proved that both are two separate professions with specific degrees and specific international Accords, therefore, no one is inferior than other.


    I found the ABET USA approach the best.  Other countries including UK may also follow it instead of mixing up both Engineering and Technology in Sydney Accord and Washington Accord.


    Thank you.

    attachments.zip
  • 0
    Apologies


    If attached files in my last reply could not be opened, please try these one in this reply.


    Thank you.
    attachments.zip

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