This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

U.K. ENGINEERING 2016 REPORT

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
​I have noted in another discussion, several comments of my own, but there seems to be a lack of interest or it takes too long to read and digest the report.

​Apart from Roy's original comments and direction to be able to read the report, it would be great to find out if IMechE, ICE and the IET have had any official comments on the report and if not, when can we expect any.?


​Daniel


P.S. Just had to get away from CEng v IEng status discussion.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    The report also deals with formation, training and education of current and future Engineers.

    It mentioned that current trends are such that require Engineers to be much more versatile and cross functional.

    Mechanical Engineers are expected to be Electrical and Electronics Engineers as well and at times vice verse.

    The single specialization can be advantage but also disadvantage in rapidly evolving High Tech., 


    Employers need to see value added when they hire IEng or any other registered Engineer.

    PEI membership and professional registration offers such value and some employers value it, this is why I see job adds that require an Engineer to be CEng or IEng.

    But in UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered.

    This sends message that millions of Engineers in UK  choose not to register because in their view they can do without it, its not tied to their employment requirement or

    some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration.


  • I have only just recently applied to be professionally registered myself even though I have been a memeber of the IET since my student days. Partially this late application is due to NOT having joined a structured training programme with a bluechip engineering comany straight out of university. But I feel I could possibly have applied or registration some years earlier. However, some of my former employers and to some extent colleagues have not always been supportive. Many were not members of the IET and were not registered. I sometimes got comments such as "why bother, you don't need it for the job", "you won't get paid more even if you get CEng registered", "you just end up having to pay more in fees to the IET", etc, etc. In at least one case, one of the employers' management - in my view - avoided helping people get registered (said they would help support my application but then ignored all requests to review and verify). One of the other engineers who had been at this unnamed employer longer than I had been told me that they viewed it as of being no benefit to the company and actually was a disadvantage as it may mean you would try and ask for more pay once CEng registered or it makes it easier for you to leave and go elsewhere. These are some of the attitudes the IET faces. I think there have been improvements in recent times. For example, the employer I mentioned (after some changes in management) are now engaged with the IET and actively helping and encouraging engineers to get professionally registered - just a shame I had to leave before they managed to get to that point.


    I have noticed that this reluctance (or apathy) towards getting professionally registered seems to be a bigger issue with electronics engineers (and other IET target members). The mechanical engineers I have come across are often members of IMechE and are professionally registered or very much actively wroking towards get registered as soon as possible. This is just an observation from the people I have encountered in my career so far. Is this what others have found also?


    Not sure if it was in the remit of the report but often in these discussions about engineering and the future of engineering the issue of salary is often skimmed over. While there are other factors that drive a person to be interested in engineering as a career, pay and salary must come fairly high up in the list of most people's considerations for a career. After all, we all need to be able to live and then hopefully be able to afford some comforts. For all the headlines about the shortage of engineers in the UK I don't see the base salaries advertised rising particularly much. The supply and demand principle does not seem to be working here (or there is not actually the acute shortage that we are constantly being told about). I am pretty sure that young people research salaries as well as other information when comparing potential careers.


  • Hi Jason,


    Re salaries, it could be argued that it's not really in the scope of this report, as there's not much the PEIs can do about it.


    However, I would actually turn this a different way. Engineering salaries are actually pretty good. (I wrote a long post somewhere else recently about this based on a recent salary survey, but I can't find it at the moment. If someone else trips over it perhaps they could post a link!) Prof Luff discusses effective (or not) promotion of STEM in schools, and one of the keys to this could be breaking the misunderstandings about salaries.


    Cheers,


    Andy

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson
    It seems that many have only time for bloging.


    The question is do we need to register Professional Engineers? Yes we need an independent  state register of competent PEs.


    And does CEng have any value nowadays?


    Do we register the FEANI Equivalent Licence (BSc ) and let HR and others chose what they require in competence and experience from CVs.


    Why do we need PEIs?

    It is to promote our profession not to restrict it.


    J Gowman BA MIET
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson
    It seems that many have only time for bloging.


    The question is do we need to register Professional Engineers? Yes we need an independent  state register of competent PEs.


    And does CEng have any value nowadays?


    Do we register the FEANI Equivalent Licence (BSc ) and let HR and others chose what they require in competence and experience from CVs.


    Why do we need PEIs?

    It is to promote our profession not to restrict it.


    J Gowman BA MIET
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson
    It seems that many have only time for bloging.


    The question is do we need to register Professional Engineers? Yes we need an independent  state register of competent PEs.


    And does CEng have any value nowadays?


    Do we register the FEANI Equivalent Licence (BSc ) and let HR and others chose what they require in competence and experience from CVs.


    Why do we need PEIs?

    It is to promote our profession not to restrict it.


    J Gowman BA MIET
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson
    It seems that many have only time for bloging.


    The question is do we need to register Professional Engineers? Yes we need an independent  state register of competent PEs.


    And does CEng have any value nowadays?


    Do we register the FEANI Equivalent Licence (BSc ) and let HR and others chose what they require in competence and experience from CVs.


    Why do we need PEIs?

    It is to promote our profession not to restrict it.


    J Gowman BA MIET
  • Having now read the report (fairly) fully, I have to say that there's nothing in the actual Recommendations (section L) I would disagree with. As discussed elsewhere, I do strongly disagree with the suggestion in the Discussion & Conclusions (and Exec Summary) that IEng / EngTech should be merged, but in the actual Recommendations is the very sensible suggestion that the PEIs and EC should "...review other grades of registration and membership." (I.e. find out why people aren't applying for IEng and EngTech, and then decide what to do about it.)


    The only area where I would have liked the report to be more bullish is in the area of STEM education. It's good that it notes that current initiatives aren't working, but it's a shame that it still focuses recommendations on students rather than putting more emphasis on communicating with teachers. Until the teachers recognise that they don't understand the needs of the profession, and that it is a very viable and worthwhile option, they won't (and don't) give the institutes access to the pupils in the first place. Let alone give appropriate advice to pupils themselves.


    Good to see that the report does recognise the reality that the vast majority of engineers aren't members of an institution. But take, for example, the statement "A problem of huge but uncertain dimension is the reported numbers working in engineering with no affiliation to any of the existing institutions." It needs to be much more precise as to why this is a problem (and, indeed, whether it is a problem). Without that clarity it won't be "solved".


    I do like the fact that Professor Luff is very candid about the lack of time and resources available for this research.


    I await with interest what happens next.


    Cheers, Andy
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson

    Moshe Waserman:

    The report also deals with formation, training and education of current and future Engineers.

    It mentioned that current trends are such that require Engineers to be much more versatile and cross functional.

    Mechanical Engineers are expected to be Electrical and Electronics Engineers as well and at times vice verse.

    The single specialization can be advantage but also disadvantage in rapidly evolving High Tech., 


    Employers need to see value added when they hire IEng or any other registered Engineer.

    PEI membership and professional registration offers such value and some employers value it, this is why I see job adds that require an Engineer to be CEng or IEng.

    But in UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered.

    This sends message that millions of Engineers in UK  choose not to register because in their view they can do without it, its not tied to their employment requirement or

    some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration.

    Moshe, 

    You are going back again to the first Blog.

    IET has members who are not inline with HQ policy of an Engineering & Technology Institute for all PEIs.


    You claim for recognition of all PE grades, but it appears that you want CEng to be the pinicle leading all other registration grades.

    Others in IET want to go back to electrical IT only and at CEng grade.


    This report, which I have not fully analysed seems to be an honest evaluation of what is needed in the UK for PEs and PEI registration of PEs at ECUK.


    Change is needed.



    Are you seriously believing that such stalwart institutions are going to proclaim=


    *the END of CEng

    * a myriad of PEIs that do not work together

    *  A register of PEs that are not peer reviewed, not subject to sponsoring

    * That do not work with modern apprenticeships

    * It is not the old CEng PEI rulers that think that “
    There is a strong body of opinion that it no longer serves the best interests of the profession or its members, or engineering employers as clients in the UK or internationally or the interests of the country at large. 


    Come on this is BREXIT England not modern Europe.


    CEng has no value except prestige.

    In the UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered. Tthe report said 75%


    The questtion is what has IET done since 2006 and what is it doing today to register the first step PE BSc , FEANI equivalent.



    Your remark - "some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration " needs to be assessed.


    I have stated why i did not become CEng IET, there is a good reason why others with the experience and competences do not register.


    IT is because PEIs have no professional value except being resrtrictive clubs.


    Who cares about titles.

    People care about jobs.


    J Gowman BA MIET



  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson

    Moshe Waserman:

    The report also deals with formation, training and education of current and future Engineers.

    It mentioned that current trends are such that require Engineers to be much more versatile and cross functional.

    Mechanical Engineers are expected to be Electrical and Electronics Engineers as well and at times vice verse.

    The single specialization can be advantage but also disadvantage in rapidly evolving High Tech., 


    Employers need to see value added when they hire IEng or any other registered Engineer.

    PEI membership and professional registration offers such value and some employers value it, this is why I see job adds that require an Engineer to be CEng or IEng.

    But in UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered.

    This sends message that millions of Engineers in UK  choose not to register because in their view they can do without it, its not tied to their employment requirement or

    some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration.

    Moshe, 

    You are going back again to the first Blog.

    IET has members who are not inline with HQ policy of an Engineering & Technology Institute for all PEIs.


    You claim for recognition of all PE grades, but it appears that you want CEng to be the pinicle leading all other registration grades.

    Others in IET want to go back to electrical IT only and at CEng grade.


    This report, which I have not fully analysed seems to be an honest evaluation of what is needed in the UK for PEs and PEI registration of PEs at ECUK.


    Change is needed.



    Are you seriously believing that such stalwart institutions are going to proclaim=


    *the END of CEng

    * a myriad of PEIs that do not work together

    *  A register of PEs that are not peer reviewed, not subject to sponsoring

    * That do not work with modern apprenticeships

    * It is not the old CEng PEI rulers that think that “
    There is a strong body of opinion that it no longer serves the best interests of the profession or its members, or engineering employers as clients in the UK or internationally or the interests of the country at large. 


    Come on this is BREXIT England not modern Europe.


    CEng has no value except prestige.

    In the UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered. Tthe report said 75%


    The questtion is what has IET done since 2006 and what is it doing today to register the first step PE BSc , FEANI equivalent.



    Your remark - "some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration " needs to be assessed.


    I have stated why i did not become CEng IET, there is a good reason why others with the experience and competences do not register.


    IT is because PEIs have no professional value except being resrtrictive clubs.


    Who cares about titles.

    People care about jobs.


    J Gowman BA MIET