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U.K. ENGINEERING 2016 REPORT

Former Community Member over 8 years ago

I have noted in another discussion, several comments of my own, but there seems to be a lack of interest or it takes too long to read and digest the report.

Apart from Roy's original comments and direction to be able to read the report, it would be great to find out if IMechE, ICE and the IET have had any official comments on the report and if not, when can we expect any.?

Daniel

P.S. Just had to get away from CEng v IEng status discussion.

0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Moshe Waserman:

The report also deals with formation, training and education of current and future Engineers.

It mentioned that current trends are such that require Engineers to be much more versatile and cross functional.

Mechanical Engineers are expected to be Electrical and Electronics Engineers as well and at times vice verse.

The single specialization can be advantage but also disadvantage in rapidly evolving High Tech.,

Employers need to see value added when they hire IEng or any other registered Engineer.

PEI membership and professional registration offers such value and some employers value it, this is why I see job adds that require an Engineer to be CEng or IEng.

But in UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered.

This sends message that millions of Engineers in UK choose not to register because in their view they can do without it, its not tied to their employment requirement or

some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration.

Moshe,

You are going back again to the first Blog.

IET has members who are not inline with HQ policy of an Engineering & Technology Institute for all PEIs.

You claim for recognition of all PE grades, but it appears that you want CEng to be the pinicle leading all other registration grades.

Others in IET want to go back to electrical IT only and at CEng grade.

This report, which I have not fully analysed seems to be an honest evaluation of what is needed in the UK for PEs and PEI registration of PEs at ECUK.

Change is needed.

Are you seriously believing that such stalwart institutions are going to proclaim=

*the END of CEng

* a myriad of PEIs that do not work together

* A register of PEs that are not peer reviewed, not subject to sponsoring

* That do not work with modern apprenticeships

* It is not the old CEng PEI rulers that think that “
There is a strong body of opinion that it no longer serves the best interests of the profession or its members, or engineering employers as clients in the UK or internationally or the interests of the country at large.

Come on this is BREXIT England not modern Europe.

CEng has no value except prestige.

In the UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered. Tthe report said 75%

The questtion is what has IET done since 2006 and what is it doing today to register the first step PE BSc , FEANI equivalent.

Your remark - "some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration " needs to be assessed.

I have stated why i did not become CEng IET, there is a good reason why others with the experience and competences do not register.

IT is because PEIs have no professional value except being resrtrictive clubs.

Who cares about titles.

People care about jobs.

J Gowman BA MIET
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Moshe Waserman:

The report also deals with formation, training and education of current and future Engineers.

It mentioned that current trends are such that require Engineers to be much more versatile and cross functional.

Mechanical Engineers are expected to be Electrical and Electronics Engineers as well and at times vice verse.

The single specialization can be advantage but also disadvantage in rapidly evolving High Tech.,

Employers need to see value added when they hire IEng or any other registered Engineer.

PEI membership and professional registration offers such value and some employers value it, this is why I see job adds that require an Engineer to be CEng or IEng.

But in UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered.

This sends message that millions of Engineers in UK choose not to register because in their view they can do without it, its not tied to their employment requirement or

some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration.

Moshe,

You are going back again to the first Blog.

IET has members who are not inline with HQ policy of an Engineering & Technology Institute for all PEIs.

You claim for recognition of all PE grades, but it appears that you want CEng to be the pinicle leading all other registration grades.

Others in IET want to go back to electrical IT only and at CEng grade.

This report, which I have not fully analysed seems to be an honest evaluation of what is needed in the UK for PEs and PEI registration of PEs at ECUK.

Change is needed.

Are you seriously believing that such stalwart institutions are going to proclaim=

*the END of CEng

* a myriad of PEIs that do not work together

* A register of PEs that are not peer reviewed, not subject to sponsoring

* That do not work with modern apprenticeships

* It is not the old CEng PEI rulers that think that “
There is a strong body of opinion that it no longer serves the best interests of the profession or its members, or engineering employers as clients in the UK or internationally or the interests of the country at large.

Come on this is BREXIT England not modern Europe.

CEng has no value except prestige.

In the UK out of some 3,000000 Engineers only 220,000 approximately are registered. Tthe report said 75%

The questtion is what has IET done since 2006 and what is it doing today to register the first step PE BSc , FEANI equivalent.

Your remark - "some other reasons that makes them not to get PEI membership and EngC registration " needs to be assessed.

I have stated why i did not become CEng IET, there is a good reason why others with the experience and competences do not register.

IT is because PEIs have no professional value except being resrtrictive clubs.

Who cares about titles.

People care about jobs.

J Gowman BA MIET
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0 Mark Curtiz over 8 years ago

The more I reflect and review the ‘Report the more I feel it is an important work (though somewhat rushed). I really do hope that the PEI’s are actively working toward implementing the Reports’ recommendations as far as is practicably achievable, and indeed, are right now working out the mechanics of what will change and by when.

Andy, I think the PEIs can have an effect of the relative regard the profession is held – and that can have an impact on salaries (over time).
And PEIs and certainly the Eng Council can expend much more effort to elevate the meaning of professional registration as an indicator of validated competence/capability that can be relied upon – that does not necessarily mean changing CEng et al, per se. This too ought to have an impact on reward (over time).

We are not alone of course, all industries that seek to have their capability and competence recognised externally, to build their reputation, go through machinations.
Having spent 10 years until 2014 in the NHS leading clinical professionals and non-clinical staff, I am very aware that it too has similar discussions about status, reputation, and more. For example, only in the UK do we have the prevailing silliness that means a qualified Doctor (i.e. one possessing a degree or doctorate in medicine) elevates to a ‘Mr (et al) when postgrad study and training is completed to achieve full consultant status. I have always bemused the irony with this - a Mr becomes a Dr to become a Mr. Historically (until 1845) a ‘Mr was someone without a degree having completed an apprenticeship under a surgeon and been awarded a diploma by the Surgeons Company (or Royal College of Surgeon after 1800) – and thus had no degree so could not call themselves a Doctor! The various bodies that work in that industry: the BMA, the GMC, and the Royal Colleges all have common goals that support the relative regard they and their ‘members’ are held by ensuring public confidence in them remains positive. Indeed, the GMC introduced mandatory revalidation (c.2013) that Docs would have to undergo in order to maintain their registration or licence to practise – not unlike our CPD requirements.

My comments above point to the effort that is expended in ensuring that standards are defined, and that are met by those wishing to practise, and that means something inside and outside the industry. And more, that the effort that is expended by the collective bodies in communicating the whole to all (particularly externally) is clear, effective and persistent. Building a good reputation is not easy but always worthwhile.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

John,

I'm actually not in UK and don't have a right to tell UK how to handle Engineering.

As a member of PEI's, I don't think PEI restrict as you mentioned in your post.

The PEI' accredit/asses based on requirements and standards set by the EngC UK or ECUK.

The PEI's first and foremost are learning societies for me. They are not political etc.Their role expanded and in my professional life they played important role.

As to CEng being pinnacle of the Engineering professional its the tradition and standard set in UK. I'm respectful of this tradition.

The same as Chartered Accountants and other Chartered professionals that are the pinnacle of the profession.

The system is not perfect, and the report is addressing important issues but in my humble view its a good system.

Again I'm not in UK so my opinion is as international member. We exchange opinions and ideas.

At work place there is even ground, one has to prove themselves and no post nominals will help if a person is not performing (unless there is something difficult, illness or loss of a loved one or other life event etc).

And yes there is hierarchy. You have officers of different ranks yet they are all officers but some officers are in higher rank and called Superior officer.

A person can work on becoming superior officer all the way to being generalist or General.

And there are in Academic world Ph.D's who view CEng as basic standard.

I think the employers want Engineers Specialists who are cross functional and versatile beyond their specialization or have multiple areas of specialization.
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0 Mark Curtiz over 8 years ago

Peter Miller:

Mark, the leaking pipeline diagram on page 104 (annex 5) is included as an illustration of the 'as is' model not the 'to be' model. It is referred to only on page 52 quote

Thank you Peter.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Moshe,

I respect you for what
you have achieved.

I’m not in the UK. I have
been black listed by some unscrupulous persons. In fact a German
scientist who sacrificed his family and his origins for a
scientific venture that failed – Fusion Power. He has never
returned to Germany.

Your ideals are no longer
the basis of professional engineering. I’m sorry to
say.

The pyramid structure no
longer works. I trained with the special forces (for rugby) the
head of the group was a non commissioned officer, we had a captain
with us, who did other things.

I have worked for the
Head of The CIA, he took people on competence. He told me the first
hand shake and 30 seconds is enough to assess a man. I shook his
hand and refused his mission.

There are structures that
keep the pyramid system, but advancing technology has another
structure. Electronics and IT are leaders in that.

I “Surveiled” (Franglais)
the design of the Chinese EPR, we were employed for a task and
released; we changed rooms, desks and buildings all the time. The
engineering team was all BSc Licence standard, specialised in
dedicated IT programmes. No CEng or Grande Ecole.

The life of the new
“state of the art” engineer is precarious. Your idea is ideal but
in the past.

IEng is a qualification
on a set date, some IEng will progress as you did, some will
broaden their experiences, I did both.

CEng is a mid Term
Status; it is valid for one year.

Your for life
qualification is your academic qualification, which shows that you
had the ability to learn and repeat.

You professional status
is your salary and your CV.

An unemployed CEng is
nothing, but his qualifications and experience will get him back on
the road.

As for PhD, I rebuilt the
world’s largest mass spectrometer used by Julich, Karlhesrhue
Darmstadt , their leading Professors bought a barrel of burgundy
and we celebrated.

One then told me that the
greatest waste of all time was PhD, not obtained until 28, read by
three people and classed to be never read again.

The same person could
have carried out a working Master and gone on to a real research
post achieving useful work by the time his is 28.

PhD and CEng are the same
they belong in the past, PhD is a university career grade not a
professional grade.

In France we have
elections; we will lose two major political parties, at Christmas
no one foresaw that.

IET is facing the same
changing phenomena.

You cannot fight
it. It is no use creating internal groups to try to protect the
system. The system, IET, is calling for change, you have to guide
it, not fight it.

It is people like you
that IET needs.

We need to get FEANI type
Licence (BSc) PEs in and working.

Best regards

John Gowman, BA
MIET

(BA after IEng) + (2
Masters) and no CEng.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Moshe,

I respect you for what
you have achieved.

I’m not in the UK. I have
been black listed by some unscrupulous persons. In fact a German
scientist who sacrificed his family and his origins for a
scientific venture that failed – Fusion Power. He has never
returned to Germany.

Your ideals are no longer
the basis of professional engineering. I’m sorry to
say.

The pyramid structure no
longer works. I trained with the special forces (for rugby) the
head of the group was a non commissioned officer, we had a captain
with us, who did other things.

I have worked for the
Head of The CIA, he took people on competence. He told me the first
hand shake and 30 seconds is enough to assess a man. I shook his
hand and refused his mission.

There are structures that
keep the pyramid system, but advancing technology has another
structure. Electronics and IT are leaders in that.

I “Surveiled” (Franglais)
the design of the Chinese EPR, we were employed for a task and
released; we changed rooms, desks and buildings all the time. The
engineering team was all BSc Licence standard, specialised in
dedicated IT programmes. No CEng or Grande Ecole.

The life of the new
“state of the art” engineer is precarious. Your idea is ideal but
in the past.

IEng is a qualification
on a set date, some IEng will progress as you did, some will
broaden their experiences, I did both.

CEng is a mid Term
Status; it is valid for one year.

Your for life
qualification is your academic qualification, which shows that you
had the ability to learn and repeat.

You professional status
is your salary and your CV.

An unemployed CEng is
nothing, but his qualifications and experience will get him back on
the road.

As for PhD, I rebuilt the
world’s largest mass spectrometer used by Julich, Karlhesrhue
Darmstadt , their leading Professors bought a barrel of burgundy
and we celebrated.

One then told me that the
greatest waste of all time was PhD, not obtained until 28, read by
three people and classed to be never read again.

The same person could
have carried out a working Master and gone on to a real research
post achieving useful work by the time his is 28.

PhD and CEng are the same
they belong in the past, PhD is a university career grade not a
professional grade.

In France we have
elections; we will lose two major political parties, at Christmas
no one foresaw that.

IET is facing the same
changing phenomena.

You cannot fight
it. It is no use creating internal groups to try to protect the
system. The system, IET, is calling for change, you have to guide
it, not fight it.

It is people like you
that IET needs.

We need to get FEANI type
Licence (BSc) PEs in and working.

Best regards

John Gowman, BA
MIET

(BA after IEng) + (2
Masters) and no CEng.
Cancel
Vote Up 0 Vote Down

Cancel
0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Moshe,

I respect you for what
you have achieved.

I’m not in the UK. I have
been black listed by some unscrupulous persons. In fact a German
scientist who sacrificed his family and his origins for a
scientific venture that failed – Fusion Power. He has never
returned to Germany.

Your ideals are no longer
the basis of professional engineering. I’m sorry to
say.

The pyramid structure no
longer works. I trained with the special forces (for rugby) the
head of the group was a non commissioned officer, we had a captain
with us, who did other things.

I have worked for the
Head of The CIA, he took people on competence. He told me the first
hand shake and 30 seconds is enough to assess a man. I shook his
hand and refused his mission.

There are structures that
keep the pyramid system, but advancing technology has another
structure. Electronics and IT are leaders in that.

I “Surveiled” (Franglais)
the design of the Chinese EPR, we were employed for a task and
released; we changed rooms, desks and buildings all the time. The
engineering team was all BSc Licence standard, specialised in
dedicated IT programmes. No CEng or Grande Ecole.

The life of the new
“state of the art” engineer is precarious. Your idea is ideal but
in the past.

IEng is a qualification
on a set date, some IEng will progress as you did, some will
broaden their experiences, I did both.

CEng is a mid Term
Status; it is valid for one year.

Your for life
qualification is your academic qualification, which shows that you
had the ability to learn and repeat.

You professional status
is your salary and your CV.

An unemployed CEng is
nothing, but his qualifications and experience will get him back on
the road.

As for PhD, I rebuilt the
world’s largest mass spectrometer used by Julich, Karlhesrhue
Darmstadt , their leading Professors bought a barrel of burgundy
and we celebrated.

One then told me that the
greatest waste of all time was PhD, not obtained until 28, read by
three people and classed to be never read again.

The same person could
have carried out a working Master and gone on to a real research
post achieving useful work by the time his is 28.

PhD and CEng are the same
they belong in the past, PhD is a university career grade not a
professional grade.

In France we have
elections; we will lose two major political parties, at Christmas
no one foresaw that.

IET is facing the same
changing phenomena.

You cannot fight
it. It is no use creating internal groups to try to protect the
system. The system, IET, is calling for change, you have to guide
it, not fight it.

It is people like you
that IET needs.

We need to get FEANI type
Licence (BSc) PEs in and working.

Best regards

John Gowman, BA
MIET

(BA after IEng) + (2
Masters) and no CEng.
Cancel
Vote Up 0 Vote Down

Cancel
0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Moshe,

I respect you for what
you have achieved.

I’m not in the UK. I have
been black listed by some unscrupulous persons. In fact a German
scientist who sacrificed his family and his origins for a
scientific venture that failed – Fusion Power. He has never
returned to Germany.

Your ideals are no longer
the basis of professional engineering. I’m sorry to
say.

The pyramid structure no
longer works. I trained with the special forces (for rugby) the
head of the group was a non commissioned officer, we had a captain
with us, who did other things.

I have worked for the
Head of The CIA, he took people on competence. He told me the first
hand shake and 30 seconds is enough to assess a man. I shook his
hand and refused his mission.

There are structures that
keep the pyramid system, but advancing technology has another
structure. Electronics and IT are leaders in that.

I “Surveiled” (Franglais)
the design of the Chinese EPR, we were employed for a task and
released; we changed rooms, desks and buildings all the time. The
engineering team was all BSc Licence standard, specialised in
dedicated IT programmes. No CEng or Grande Ecole.

The life of the new
“state of the art” engineer is precarious. Your idea is ideal but
in the past.

IEng is a qualification
on a set date, some IEng will progress as you did, some will
broaden their experiences, I did both.

CEng is a mid Term
Status; it is valid for one year.

Your for life
qualification is your academic qualification, which shows that you
had the ability to learn and repeat.

You professional status
is your salary and your CV.

An unemployed CEng is
nothing, but his qualifications and experience will get him back on
the road.

As for PhD, I rebuilt the
world’s largest mass spectrometer used by Julich, Karlhesrhue
Darmstadt , their leading Professors bought a barrel of burgundy
and we celebrated.

One then told me that the
greatest waste of all time was PhD, not obtained until 28, read by
three people and classed to be never read again.

The same person could
have carried out a working Master and gone on to a real research
post achieving useful work by the time his is 28.

PhD and CEng are the same
they belong in the past, PhD is a university career grade not a
professional grade.

In France we have
elections; we will lose two major political parties, at Christmas
no one foresaw that.

IET is facing the same
changing phenomena.

You cannot fight
it. It is no use creating internal groups to try to protect the
system. The system, IET, is calling for change, you have to guide
it, not fight it.

It is people like you
that IET needs.

We need to get FEANI type
Licence (BSc) PEs in and working.

Best regards

John Gowman, BA
MIET

(BA after IEng) + (2
Masters) and no CEng.
Cancel
Vote Up 0 Vote Down

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0 Peter Miller over 8 years ago

Andy, I would agree with your view that IEng and Engtech should not be merged if I thought that IEng would be promoted. History has shown us that it will not. You suggest 'find out why people aren't applying for IEng and EngTech, and then decide what to do about it'. There was an IEng review a few years back where the Engineering Council commissioned an independent report looking into why people were not applying for IEng, the main recommendation was that IEng should have some distinctive elements to it. i.e not just watered down CEng competencies. The Engineering Council ignored this advice and when UKSpec was updated with the competencies of IEng were devalued in comparison to CEng. The IET, to their credit, opposed many of the changes but in the end were ignored. It seemed that a review in to how IEng could be 'invigorated' resulted in the exact opposite. In terms of any current initiatives to promote IEng, today is deadline for nominations for the Baroness Platt of Writtle IEng Award. The previous winners have all been very impressive engineers, but I can't see where the link to IEng is, as the main judging criteria appears to be totally aligned to CEng competencies.
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U.K. ENGINEERING 2016 REPORT

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