Engineers who did not enjoy school - are they rare?

Hi Arran,

Very quickly - I really think you need to start visiting more schools!!! They're all different, but making videos is most definitely on the curriculum at most I've worked with. It's less about improving the quantity, more about the quality.

Kids making youtube videos is great, but to develop you do need constructive criticism.

Must go

Cheers, Andy

Andy Millar:

Hmmm...as a parent of two recent school leavers, a school governor for 9 years, and a very active STEM Ambassador for 17 years I'd suggest that if there's one thing successive UK governments (of all colours) have proved over the last 20-30 years it's that major reforms to the curriculum - and, indeed, the whole role of schools -  can be done year after year! I'd better not go further else I'll start getting political.


The state school system is continuously evolving, changing, and developing, so giving that development a nudge in any particular direction is always possible. Which many involved in STEM education support - including the IET - are very actively doing.

I’m watching computer science in schools with trepidation as an acid test whether it’s realistically possible to add a new subject to the school curriculum that is both mainstream and respected. There have actually been no new subjects added to the school curriculum since the 1950s that are both mainstream and respected apart from Spanish – and that’s just another foreign language. Other new subjects have merely been updated old subjects like D&T Resistant Materials replacing woodwork and metalwork, or religious studies replacing scripture / Bible studies, but are not really new subjects to the same degree that computer science is; marginal subjects like electronics and business studies; or subjects that aren’t respected and valued by further education and employers. I would say that the last major curriculum change on a similar scale to introducing computer science was implementing traditional science and non-Christian religions into the primary school National Curriculum in the late 1980s – and it was quite a difficult process that took the best part of 10 years to fully settle in place despite them being established subjects at secondary school.


Computer science is a completely different beast from ICT. It requires teachers with a different knowledge base and a different mindset from that of a high proportion of ICT teachers who’s knowledge of computers is only using them for office tasks and doesn’t extend far beyond the curriculum that they have to teach. They rarely know anything about algorithms or microprocessors, and neither have they done any programming. It’s common to find history teachers teaching ICT in secondary schools who have no formal education in anything computer related. It’s plausible to say that electronics and physics teachers are in a better position to teach computer science in secondary schools than ICT teachers are.


If computer science succeeds as a mainstream subject in 10 years time and the GCSE is just as respected by further education and employers as a GCSE in traditional science, history, or geography are then I will conclude that it’s genuinely possible to add a completely new subject to the school curriculum.


If computer science becomes a marginal and unpopular – or even a failed GCSE – in 10 years time then I will conclude that the state school curriculum is virtually frozen. It will be possible to tinker around the edges of established subjects or introduce new minor subjects at secondary school level that are optional and only offered by a handful of schools where budgets and teachers are available, but no new subjects on a national scale that are both mainstream and respected.


Another concern I have about computer science is that it’s not a facilitating A Level like biology, chemistry, and physics are. The effects of this could propagate down the school system to primary level giving the impression that computer science is a soft subject, even if it’s as academically rigorous as traditional sciences are, putting the longer term future of computer science into jeopardy.


There is some evidence that independent schools have fared better than state schools at introducing and teaching computer science. One possible explanation is that independent schools are able to employ people from industry to teach computer science who are knowledgeable in the subject but are not qualified teachers, rather than having to find qualified teachers with the knowledge (rare) or train up existing ICT teachers which is what state schools have to do.


A third possible outcome in 10 years time is that computer science will be a respected subject but not a mainstream subject with the vast majority of all GCSE entries being from independent schools rather than state schools. In other words, computer science becomes the new Latin. This scenario will also make me conclude that the state school curriculum is virtually frozen.

Andy Millar:

 I think this is partly down to the extraordinary (state) primary school they attended, and also because they did a lot of drama and music.

I have no musical talent and cannot play any instruments. Did I fail at school or did school fail me?


Does musical talent have any personal advantages in the corporate world even in careers that have nothing to do with music?

I too loved School - but after I was about 12 years old. After the age of twelve I grew to really appreciate the generosity of my teachers. I went to a Secondary Modern School in Sheffield - it was supposed to be rough but it wasn't the teachers were excellent, caring and always encouraged the best out of me. Thank you (belatedly) to Mr Smith (Maths), Mr Reeny (English), Mr Rapier (Science), Mr Lacey and Mr Needham (Woodwork), and Mr Edlington (Headmaster). They set me up for doing well in my later life.

In my experience from engineering shop floor, through board room and on to professional practice, many Engineers often show indications of dyslexia and/or mild autism. I believe it's also true of some the most outstanding historical figures of the applied sciences. Basically some of us have minds that are wired differently and that's how we solve problems. Society in general and schools in particular don't cope well with those who don't conform or fit in.


Having been at the wrong end of several failed social engineering experiments in education during the late 50's, 60's and 70's in mining area Church, Secondary Modern and Grammar schools, then a couple of Polytechnics plus being married to a wonderful school teacher, I can speak with some experience. You have to be extremely self reliant to be happy when you're out of step with the crowd for whatever reason.


Stephen J Goldthorpe CEng, MIET, CMgr MCMI

As an ex-teacher, I found the work in schools to be reliant on teachers knowing engineering out of school to be able to enthuse the kids. I was an engineer in industry before that, 5 years, then taught ( though I am back in Engineering now). But when I taught, I was able to relate design in class, even get real life situations in class so that the kids could design to the real world situation. This included drawing, planning AND Maths. By getting together with architects, engineers and asking student to design what they are doing for real gives the students an incentive and also if there is good enough design ideas, could be used by the Architects/engineers. It's about engagement.

As for practical, it is limiting, but getting the students hands dirty was the best way and they loved it. But it does give them an understanding of materials.

As they go into 6th form, they need to find a company to do 2 weeks with them. The inspiration is great.

Dear Arran,

I'm a Chartered Engineer and I hated every moment of being at school (one boy's grammar school, and one public school). The teachers and children colluded to be unremittingly cruel every day. I just wanted to learn in peace, but the school wouldn't teach me any of the things I wanted to learn about.

My only sources of interesting knowledge were my father who was an electronics teacher, and the free Open University programs that they used to broadcast on BBC2 early in the morning in the late 1970's.

The school's official policy on computers was that "computers are a passing fad", and it was only reluctantly that they allowed me to take time out to start studying A-level computer science (a year early), for which I had to walk across town to the Technical college to listen to an actual computer science teacher.

When I eventually got to University I almost wept for joy to discover that the students and lecturers were actually nice, with actual human empathy and everything, and that learning fun things and making cool stuff was actually encouraged. I devoured the knowledge being offered, obtained a 1st class hons degree in "Cybernetics & Control Engineering, with Mathematics as a subsidiary subject", and I have been happy ever since.

Regards,

Nicholas Lee

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Dear Arran,

I'm a Chartered Engineer and I hated every moment of being at school (one boy's grammar school, and one public school). The teachers and children colluded to be unremittingly cruel every day. I just wanted to learn in peace, but the school wouldn't teach me any of the things I wanted to learn about.

My only sources of interesting knowledge were my father who was an electronics teacher, and the free Open University programs that they used to broadcast on BBC2 early in the morning in the late 1970's.

The school's official policy on computers was that "computers are a passing fad", and it was only reluctantly that they allowed me to take time out to start studying A-level computer science (a year early), for which I had to walk across town to the Technical college to listen to an actual computer science teacher.

When I eventually got to University I almost wept for joy to discover that the students and lecturers were actually nice, with actual human empathy and everything, and that learning fun things and making cool stuff was actually encouraged. I devoured the knowledge being offered, obtained a 1st class hons degree in "Cybernetics & Control Engineering, with Mathematics as a subsidiary subject", and I have been happy ever since.

Regards,

Nicholas Lee

[Text removed by moderator]

Dear Arran,

I'm a Chartered Engineer and I hated every moment of being at school (one boy's grammar school, and one public school). The teachers and children colluded to be unremittingly cruel every day. I just wanted to learn in peace, but the school wouldn't teach me any of the things I wanted to learn about.

My only sources of interesting knowledge were my father who was an electronics teacher, and the free Open University programs that they used to broadcast on BBC2 early in the morning in the late 1970's.

The school's official policy on computers was that "computers are a passing fad", and it was only reluctantly that they allowed me to take time out to start studying A-level computer science (a year early), for which I had to walk across town to the Technical college to listen to an actual computer science teacher.

When I eventually got to University I almost wept for joy to discover that the students and lecturers were actually nice, with actual human empathy and everything, and that learning fun things and making cool stuff was actually encouraged. I devoured the knowledge being offered, obtained a 1st class hons degree in "Cybernetics & Control Engineering, with Mathematics as a subsidiary subject", and I have been happy ever since.

Regards,

Nicholas Lee

[Text removed by moderator]