Time to create a new professional registration for Engineering Technologists

Roy Pemberton, I received by e-mail notification , what I thought was a very well-argued post, but it seems that you deleted it, leaving the confused one line comment on Wednesday evening.

 

If the deletion was accidental  then you should re-post. If it is lost then I have a copy by subscription. I would also alert others, that the your post is sent to subscribers immediately. I often only spot a minor problem when I see it on-line and then use the 15 minute window to edit.      

Hi All,
I don't think we need to create new professional registration for Engineering Technologist as per the title suggested. We already have IEng which is also an Engineering Technologist as per define clearly by International Engineering Alliance (IEA) under Sydney Accord.


I think the way forward is to intensify the effort to register more IEng and more marketing awareness campaign for IEng both candidate and employer.
I also like Moshe post regarding the job advertisement where more employer put IEng/CEng for job requirement.

I would like to make another note that very few IEng actually go for International Register Engineering Technologist (IntET) in IET, I not sure about other PEI. When I received my IntET(UK) back in 2015, I did ask back IET how many IntET(UK) in IET and the answer is less then 20 if I can recalled back properly. I think IET and EC should put more effort to increase the number of IntET(UK).

Can anyone in IET membership provide us the number? How many IntET(UK) in IET to date?

I also had brain storm that perhaps we need to redefine the title and post nominal in order to better define Professional Engineer (PE) status both IEng and CEng level. I not sure PE is really acceptable way for UK system for their registration structure. Let say if it is ok below my random idea:
Professional Engineer IEng
Professional Engineer CEng
PE IEng
PE CEng
But the PE CEng sound very confusing. I guess it didnt went well.


By the way some member ask me what is AET? AET is ASEAN Engineering Technologist.

http://afeo.org/

For those who are interested for reading.

To all on this blog.

Are there any other MIET who read these blogs?


I have taken thiese questions to the Engineering Council - Which only follows the guidance of PEIs of which the Big Three decide for all.


It is the case, in the UK, that to call for CEng only for an engineering position in the UK is illegal.

I have published this reply before.

The ECUK has stated that it is perfecttly acceptable to request for an engineer meeting UK Spec and having a certified educational diploma.


This being the case, I have brought to light certain UK Employers who have not only stipulated CEng only for a post , but have refused MIET for mechanical engineering posts.


As has been stated the number of engineers confined to one discipline is deminishing, we have to be speciamists and cross discipline competent.


I have tried to bring this discussion on titles andcompetence to the lime light; so have the Big Four (RAE included ) and ECUK. Hence the Uff Report etc.


For my part, I find that the whole argument is pointless, but by good old British traditions we are trapped in a time warp.


The facts are clear : the UK needs good all round Professional Engineers that are no longer are being trained or exist in the UK.

There is an inner circle of people who have achieved engineering recognition and want to  create an elite circle of PE members - CEng.


I Eng, C Eng, Technician, Technologists these are grades that exist for the time of registration. Technology changes, people come and go. We are told to change (MoD) sectors and disciplines every seven years. I trained with realy good electronics technicians, they tell me that there are no such posts today. 


What we have with this CEng elitist attitude is people calling for CEng in recruitment and recruiting only CEng.

The result is that you have to be CEng to join a large company in the UK, because CEng recruit.
So if you want a job be CEng - this is totally illegal, and a restrictive practice.


I feel totally out of touch, I had an excelent education and training in theUK the likes of which were destryed by politicians that did not understand education or training.

I was multidisciplined and even more so when I went to France. I joined the forerunner of IET with HNC. I was ahead of universities in my technology - fatigue, vacuum cryogenics, special techniques. I was sent on University courses modelled on my and my colleagues needs - French, Computing, MSc in nuclear physics, Second apprenticeship in electronics.

Then I returned to the UK, where i became engineer in charge of the UK's leading Technology project. I decided that technology was changing too quickly, so I collected university courses on materials, mathematical modelling, applied science and a test refresher in Mech Eng. I had PhDs complaining that I was in charge when I only had a HNC.


I had scientists from all over the world coaching me and working in my teams and advanced projects. In the end I decided to cash in my ECTs for a BA in Scince. My R&D Centre Director only had HNC but was the world leading expert in his domain, our materials expert did not even have a HNC, he advised world wide.

So what's in a title.?

Well those that came up the hard way (I left school at 15) want to make sure that they are recognised; so they close the doors on similar persons as soon as they are titled.

There was a past IET President who called for me to resign - He only has BSc! 


it seems that to get a good job in the UK as a PE you need to be CEng.

To get good technology advice you need to  subscribe or join specialist Technology groups and journals - the Web does not advise , it replies to questions only.


          I think that this blog is asking the right questions.


Tech Eng - I Eng is a great title of respect the day you gain it.

You have the choice , good luck or not, to widen your experience and become an expert. Like an army trooper leading a patrol where the officer in charge follows whilst on active duty. Each has his post and reposibility.

I have worked in teams with experts from Nobel Laureates to electronic technicians, we made huge progress in science and each one was respected for their capabilities.


This CEng / IEng arguement, is out of date and out of reality.

As is Electronic; Electrical, IT, mechnanical engineers ; they donot exist any more, they are all mongrels in technology, each with their own particular expertise, and gained expertise from other disciplines; totally helpless without their dedicated partners.


OCED has just written that the whole educational system for technologists and professionals world wide is caduque (worthless) new professionals need good all round education, a hard core base, good training and several years of professional practice. They said that colecting MScs (two or three is the rule in EU) is a waste of time, money and energy.


I was working on a R&D  nuclear reactor when it broke down  with a new fuel load. I was called and told to fix it, (I was at 27, one of four group leaders appointed to lead the revamping) after the reactor was repaired, relicenced and restarted, our clients bought a barrel of Burgundy to celibrate. At midnight I was in a restaurant with our admin director who went on to be direcytor of EURATOM - he said that he had to say that the biggest waste of education was the PhD, only three people read the thesis and they have past their most efficient research period doing worthless research as petit mains (cheap labour for their professors).He said that practicing engineers do much more usefull R&D and many more projects in the same period of time. What is more PhDs are put into positions where they have no experience.

I think that CEng is much the same, the Technology expert who gains his CEng soon moves on to other responsibilities for which his title has no bearing and he loses his technology skills over a few years.


Coming to the Prof Uff statistics, 70% of UK PEs are not ECUK registered, only 10 % are women. 

IEng ore not interested, and most of our CEng are even older than me!         Wow the UK has one great big problem!


We need a PEI that informs, we need PEs registered once HNC or BSc, and let them specialise and gain further education and experience as they progress. They can simply show their expertise by PE , MSc, MBA, but they should be simple PEI members. They will not have the experience of a specialist IEng,  each to his own particularity.


The CEng (Electricals) have tied up IET into a perpetual motion machine you can not change it now. It is independent from its members, the IET leaders  are advising, schools, ministers and public without the agreement of members.

Members have lost control.


I think that young PEs are asking themselves why join a PEI that is out of touch with its members and reality?
Look at the E&T report on the image of CEng over forty - out of touch.


It is not just Time to create a new professional registration for Engineering Technologists.

It is time to give back IET to IEE stalwarts as an ELECTRO-TECHNOLOGICA INSTITUTE - IET 

and create  a new professional registration for Professional Engineeris & Technologists HNC - BSc (with horizontal and vertical progression).


It is time to get back to engineering.

The choice is in the hands of all members, I'm retiring 


John Gowman

To all on this blog.

Are there any other MIET who read these blogs?


I have taken thiese questions to the Engineering Council - Which only follows the guidance of PEIs of which the Big Three decide for all.


It is the case, in the UK, that to call for CEng only for an engineering position in the UK is illegal.

I have published this reply before.

The ECUK has stated that it is perfecttly acceptable to request for an engineer meeting UK Spec and having a certified educational diploma.


This being the case, I have brought to light certain UK Employers who have not only stipulated CEng only for a post , but have refused MIET for mechanical engineering posts.


As has been stated the number of engineers confined to one discipline is deminishing, we have to be speciamists and cross discipline competent.


I have tried to bring this discussion on titles andcompetence to the lime light; so have the Big Four (RAE included ) and ECUK. Hence the Uff Report etc.


For my part, I find that the whole argument is pointless, but by good old British traditions we are trapped in a time warp.


The facts are clear : the UK needs good all round Professional Engineers that are no longer are being trained or exist in the UK.

There is an inner circle of people who have achieved engineering recognition and want to  create an elite circle of PE members - CEng.


I Eng, C Eng, Technician, Technologists these are grades that exist for the time of registration. Technology changes, people come and go. We are told to change (MoD) sectors and disciplines every seven years. I trained with realy good electronics technicians, they tell me that there are no such posts today. 


What we have with this CEng elitist attitude is people calling for CEng in recruitment and recruiting only CEng.

The result is that you have to be CEng to join a large company in the UK, because CEng recruit.
So if you want a job be CEng - this is totally illegal, and a restrictive practice.


I feel totally out of touch, I had an excelent education and training in theUK the likes of which were destryed by politicians that did not understand education or training.

I was multidisciplined and even more so when I went to France. I joined the forerunner of IET with HNC. I was ahead of universities in my technology - fatigue, vacuum cryogenics, special techniques. I was sent on University courses modelled on my and my colleagues needs - French, Computing, MSc in nuclear physics, Second apprenticeship in electronics.

Then I returned to the UK, where i became engineer in charge of the UK's leading Technology project. I decided that technology was changing too quickly, so I collected university courses on materials, mathematical modelling, applied science and a test refresher in Mech Eng. I had PhDs complaining that I was in charge when I only had a HNC.


I had scientists from all over the world coaching me and working in my teams and advanced projects. In the end I decided to cash in my ECTs for a BA in Scince. My R&D Centre Director only had HNC but was the world leading expert in his domain, our materials expert did not even have a HNC, he advised world wide.

So what's in a title.?

Well those that came up the hard way (I left school at 15) want to make sure that they are recognised; so they close the doors on similar persons as soon as they are titled.

There was a past IET President who called for me to resign - He only has BSc! 


it seems that to get a good job in the UK as a PE you need to be CEng.

To get good technology advice you need to  subscribe or join specialist Technology groups and journals - the Web does not advise , it replies to questions only.


          I think that this blog is asking the right questions.


Tech Eng - I Eng is a great title of respect the day you gain it.

You have the choice , good luck or not, to widen your experience and become an expert. Like an army trooper leading a patrol where the officer in charge follows whilst on active duty. Each has his post and reposibility.

I have worked in teams with experts from Nobel Laureates to electronic technicians, we made huge progress in science and each one was respected for their capabilities.


This CEng / IEng arguement, is out of date and out of reality.

As is Electronic; Electrical, IT, mechnanical engineers ; they donot exist any more, they are all mongrels in technology, each with their own particular expertise, and gained expertise from other disciplines; totally helpless without their dedicated partners.


OCED has just written that the whole educational system for technologists and professionals world wide is caduque (worthless) new professionals need good all round education, a hard core base, good training and several years of professional practice. They said that colecting MScs (two or three is the rule in EU) is a waste of time, money and energy.


I was working on a R&D  nuclear reactor when it broke down  with a new fuel load. I was called and told to fix it, (I was at 27, one of four group leaders appointed to lead the revamping) after the reactor was repaired, relicenced and restarted, our clients bought a barrel of Burgundy to celibrate. At midnight I was in a restaurant with our admin director who went on to be direcytor of EURATOM - he said that he had to say that the biggest waste of education was the PhD, only three people read the thesis and they have past their most efficient research period doing worthless research as petit mains (cheap labour for their professors).He said that practicing engineers do much more usefull R&D and many more projects in the same period of time. What is more PhDs are put into positions where they have no experience.

I think that CEng is much the same, the Technology expert who gains his CEng soon moves on to other responsibilities for which his title has no bearing and he loses his technology skills over a few years.


Coming to the Prof Uff statistics, 70% of UK PEs are not ECUK registered, only 10 % are women. 

IEng ore not interested, and most of our CEng are even older than me!         Wow the UK has one great big problem!


We need a PEI that informs, we need PEs registered once HNC or BSc, and let them specialise and gain further education and experience as they progress. They can simply show their expertise by PE , MSc, MBA, but they should be simple PEI members. They will not have the experience of a specialist IEng,  each to his own particularity.


The CEng (Electricals) have tied up IET into a perpetual motion machine you can not change it now. It is independent from its members, the IET leaders  are advising, schools, ministers and public without the agreement of members.

Members have lost control.


I think that young PEs are asking themselves why join a PEI that is out of touch with its members and reality?
Look at the E&T report on the image of CEng over forty - out of touch.


It is not just Time to create a new professional registration for Engineering Technologists.

It is time to give back IET to IEE stalwarts as an ELECTRO-TECHNOLOGICA INSTITUTE - IET 

and create  a new professional registration for Professional Engineeris & Technologists HNC - BSc (with horizontal and vertical progression).


It is time to get back to engineering.

The choice is in the hands of all members, I'm retiring 


John Gowman

To all on this blog.

Are there any other MIET who read these blogs?


I have taken thiese questions to the Engineering Council - Which only follows the guidance of PEIs of which the Big Three decide for all.


It is the case, in the UK, that to call for CEng only for an engineering position in the UK is illegal.

I have published this reply before.

The ECUK has stated that it is perfecttly acceptable to request for an engineer meeting UK Spec and having a certified educational diploma.


This being the case, I have brought to light certain UK Employers who have not only stipulated CEng only for a post , but have refused MIET for mechanical engineering posts.


As has been stated the number of engineers confined to one discipline is deminishing, we have to be speciamists and cross discipline competent.


I have tried to bring this discussion on titles andcompetence to the lime light; so have the Big Four (RAE included ) and ECUK. Hence the Uff Report etc.


For my part, I find that the whole argument is pointless, but by good old British traditions we are trapped in a time warp.


The facts are clear : the UK needs good all round Professional Engineers that are no longer are being trained or exist in the UK.

There is an inner circle of people who have achieved engineering recognition and want to  create an elite circle of PE members - CEng.


I Eng, C Eng, Technician, Technologists these are grades that exist for the time of registration. Technology changes, people come and go. We are told to change (MoD) sectors and disciplines every seven years. I trained with realy good electronics technicians, they tell me that there are no such posts today. 


What we have with this CEng elitist attitude is people calling for CEng in recruitment and recruiting only CEng.

The result is that you have to be CEng to join a large company in the UK, because CEng recruit.
So if you want a job be CEng - this is totally illegal, and a restrictive practice.


I feel totally out of touch, I had an excelent education and training in theUK the likes of which were destryed by politicians that did not understand education or training.

I was multidisciplined and even more so when I went to France. I joined the forerunner of IET with HNC. I was ahead of universities in my technology - fatigue, vacuum cryogenics, special techniques. I was sent on University courses modelled on my and my colleagues needs - French, Computing, MSc in nuclear physics, Second apprenticeship in electronics.

Then I returned to the UK, where i became engineer in charge of the UK's leading Technology project. I decided that technology was changing too quickly, so I collected university courses on materials, mathematical modelling, applied science and a test refresher in Mech Eng. I had PhDs complaining that I was in charge when I only had a HNC.


I had scientists from all over the world coaching me and working in my teams and advanced projects. In the end I decided to cash in my ECTs for a BA in Scince. My R&D Centre Director only had HNC but was the world leading expert in his domain, our materials expert did not even have a HNC, he advised world wide.

So what's in a title.?

Well those that came up the hard way (I left school at 15) want to make sure that they are recognised; so they close the doors on similar persons as soon as they are titled.

There was a past IET President who called for me to resign - He only has BSc! 


it seems that to get a good job in the UK as a PE you need to be CEng.

To get good technology advice you need to  subscribe or join specialist Technology groups and journals - the Web does not advise , it replies to questions only.


          I think that this blog is asking the right questions.


Tech Eng - I Eng is a great title of respect the day you gain it.

You have the choice , good luck or not, to widen your experience and become an expert. Like an army trooper leading a patrol where the officer in charge follows whilst on active duty. Each has his post and reposibility.

I have worked in teams with experts from Nobel Laureates to electronic technicians, we made huge progress in science and each one was respected for their capabilities.


This CEng / IEng arguement, is out of date and out of reality.

As is Electronic; Electrical, IT, mechnanical engineers ; they donot exist any more, they are all mongrels in technology, each with their own particular expertise, and gained expertise from other disciplines; totally helpless without their dedicated partners.


OCED has just written that the whole educational system for technologists and professionals world wide is caduque (worthless) new professionals need good all round education, a hard core base, good training and several years of professional practice. They said that colecting MScs (two or three is the rule in EU) is a waste of time, money and energy.


I was working on a R&D  nuclear reactor when it broke down  with a new fuel load. I was called and told to fix it, (I was at 27, one of four group leaders appointed to lead the revamping) after the reactor was repaired, relicenced and restarted, our clients bought a barrel of Burgundy to celibrate. At midnight I was in a restaurant with our admin director who went on to be direcytor of EURATOM - he said that he had to say that the biggest waste of education was the PhD, only three people read the thesis and they have past their most efficient research period doing worthless research as petit mains (cheap labour for their professors).He said that practicing engineers do much more usefull R&D and many more projects in the same period of time. What is more PhDs are put into positions where they have no experience.

I think that CEng is much the same, the Technology expert who gains his CEng soon moves on to other responsibilities for which his title has no bearing and he loses his technology skills over a few years.


Coming to the Prof Uff statistics, 70% of UK PEs are not ECUK registered, only 10 % are women. 

IEng ore not interested, and most of our CEng are even older than me!         Wow the UK has one great big problem!


We need a PEI that informs, we need PEs registered once HNC or BSc, and let them specialise and gain further education and experience as they progress. They can simply show their expertise by PE , MSc, MBA, but they should be simple PEI members. They will not have the experience of a specialist IEng,  each to his own particularity.


The CEng (Electricals) have tied up IET into a perpetual motion machine you can not change it now. It is independent from its members, the IET leaders  are advising, schools, ministers and public without the agreement of members.

Members have lost control.


I think that young PEs are asking themselves why join a PEI that is out of touch with its members and reality?
Look at the E&T report on the image of CEng over forty - out of touch.


It is not just Time to create a new professional registration for Engineering Technologists.

It is time to give back IET to IEE stalwarts as an ELECTRO-TECHNOLOGICA INSTITUTE - IET 

and create  a new professional registration for Professional Engineeris & Technologists HNC - BSc (with horizontal and vertical progression).


It is time to get back to engineering.

The choice is in the hands of all members, I'm retiring 


John Gowman

To all on this blog.

Are there any other MIET who read these blogs?


I have taken thiese questions to the Engineering Council - Which only follows the guidance of PEIs of which the Big Three decide for all.


It is the case, in the UK, that to call for CEng only for an engineering position in the UK is illegal.

I have published this reply before.

The ECUK has stated that it is perfecttly acceptable to request for an engineer meeting UK Spec and having a certified educational diploma.


This being the case, I have brought to light certain UK Employers who have not only stipulated CEng only for a post , but have refused MIET for mechanical engineering posts.


As has been stated the number of engineers confined to one discipline is deminishing, we have to be speciamists and cross discipline competent.


I have tried to bring this discussion on titles andcompetence to the lime light; so have the Big Four (RAE included ) and ECUK. Hence the Uff Report etc.


For my part, I find that the whole argument is pointless, but by good old British traditions we are trapped in a time warp.


The facts are clear : the UK needs good all round Professional Engineers that are no longer are being trained or exist in the UK.

There is an inner circle of people who have achieved engineering recognition and want to  create an elite circle of PE members - CEng.


I Eng, C Eng, Technician, Technologists these are grades that exist for the time of registration. Technology changes, people come and go. We are told to change (MoD) sectors and disciplines every seven years. I trained with realy good electronics technicians, they tell me that there are no such posts today. 


What we have with this CEng elitist attitude is people calling for CEng in recruitment and recruiting only CEng.

The result is that you have to be CEng to join a large company in the UK, because CEng recruit.
So if you want a job be CEng - this is totally illegal, and a restrictive practice.


I feel totally out of touch, I had an excelent education and training in theUK the likes of which were destryed by politicians that did not understand education or training.

I was multidisciplined and even more so when I went to France. I joined the forerunner of IET with HNC. I was ahead of universities in my technology - fatigue, vacuum cryogenics, special techniques. I was sent on University courses modelled on my and my colleagues needs - French, Computing, MSc in nuclear physics, Second apprenticeship in electronics.

Then I returned to the UK, where i became engineer in charge of the UK's leading Technology project. I decided that technology was changing too quickly, so I collected university courses on materials, mathematical modelling, applied science and a test refresher in Mech Eng. I had PhDs complaining that I was in charge when I only had a HNC.


I had scientists from all over the world coaching me and working in my teams and advanced projects. In the end I decided to cash in my ECTs for a BA in Scince. My R&D Centre Director only had HNC but was the world leading expert in his domain, our materials expert did not even have a HNC, he advised world wide.

So what's in a title.?

Well those that came up the hard way (I left school at 15) want to make sure that they are recognised; so they close the doors on similar persons as soon as they are titled.

There was a past IET President who called for me to resign - He only has BSc! 


it seems that to get a good job in the UK as a PE you need to be CEng.

To get good technology advice you need to  subscribe or join specialist Technology groups and journals - the Web does not advise , it replies to questions only.


          I think that this blog is asking the right questions.


Tech Eng - I Eng is a great title of respect the day you gain it.

You have the choice , good luck or not, to widen your experience and become an expert. Like an army trooper leading a patrol where the officer in charge follows whilst on active duty. Each has his post and reposibility.

I have worked in teams with experts from Nobel Laureates to electronic technicians, we made huge progress in science and each one was respected for their capabilities.


This CEng / IEng arguement, is out of date and out of reality.

As is Electronic; Electrical, IT, mechnanical engineers ; they donot exist any more, they are all mongrels in technology, each with their own particular expertise, and gained expertise from other disciplines; totally helpless without their dedicated partners.


OCED has just written that the whole educational system for technologists and professionals world wide is caduque (worthless) new professionals need good all round education, a hard core base, good training and several years of professional practice. They said that colecting MScs (two or three is the rule in EU) is a waste of time, money and energy.


I was working on a R&D  nuclear reactor when it broke down  with a new fuel load. I was called and told to fix it, (I was at 27, one of four group leaders appointed to lead the revamping) after the reactor was repaired, relicenced and restarted, our clients bought a barrel of Burgundy to celibrate. At midnight I was in a restaurant with our admin director who went on to be direcytor of EURATOM - he said that he had to say that the biggest waste of education was the PhD, only three people read the thesis and they have past their most efficient research period doing worthless research as petit mains (cheap labour for their professors).He said that practicing engineers do much more usefull R&D and many more projects in the same period of time. What is more PhDs are put into positions where they have no experience.

I think that CEng is much the same, the Technology expert who gains his CEng soon moves on to other responsibilities for which his title has no bearing and he loses his technology skills over a few years.


Coming to the Prof Uff statistics, 70% of UK PEs are not ECUK registered, only 10 % are women. 

IEng ore not interested, and most of our CEng are even older than me!         Wow the UK has one great big problem!


We need a PEI that informs, we need PEs registered once HNC or BSc, and let them specialise and gain further education and experience as they progress. They can simply show their expertise by PE , MSc, MBA, but they should be simple PEI members. They will not have the experience of a specialist IEng,  each to his own particularity.


The CEng (Electricals) have tied up IET into a perpetual motion machine you can not change it now. It is independent from its members, the IET leaders  are advising, schools, ministers and public without the agreement of members.

Members have lost control.


I think that young PEs are asking themselves why join a PEI that is out of touch with its members and reality?
Look at the E&T report on the image of CEng over forty - out of touch.


It is not just Time to create a new professional registration for Engineering Technologists.

It is time to give back IET to IEE stalwarts as an ELECTRO-TECHNOLOGICA INSTITUTE - IET 

and create  a new professional registration for Professional Engineeris & Technologists HNC - BSc (with horizontal and vertical progression).


It is time to get back to engineering.

The choice is in the hands of all members, I'm retiring 


John Gowman

Hi Moshe,


​I think you are correct that those who have IEng should feel pride in the achivement. However I disagree with the assumption that IEng is widely accepted as a professional engineer. I was registered as a Technician Enginneer and then an Incorporated Engineer and during that time only once did I meet another IEng (he was the Superintendent of Shipping for Shell) . I'm not sure if there is some kind of inverse snobbery at play or a feeling that incorporated engineers are second best which stops a wider acceptance. Moshe listed a number of job adverts citing IEng, I don't think this indicates IEng is widely accepted. As I stated earlier, there are 5.7million employed in engineering related enterprises in the UK, one would expect to Goggle some job ads asking for IEng. If you could get 2000 google results that would be about 0.05% engineering workforce 'churn'. Also its interesting that the job ads ask for CEng/IEng, is there any difference between the two from the advertisers perspective?

Roy Bowdler,
Thank you for letting know. No, I was completely unaware the post got deleted, it was definitely unintentional. I did select the edit button in an attempt to correct typos, and only saw a blank box so gave up, and just entered my comment about typos instead. I'm presuming that replaced my original post. That's a lesson leant, I won't make that mistake again.
If you do still have a copy of the text in post, I'd really appreciate it so that I can re post it as I spent quite some time composing it and doubt I'd do it justice a second time. Maybe best to send it me by email?