Hi Roy,


Many thanks for you very well considered reply. I must admit that I always look at this from this point of view: if I was an MP would I consider that for any piece of potential legislation the potential cost (to the state or to UK plc, or in this case probably both) is outweighed by the public benefit? And of course it is reasonable to use an ALARP argument here, it may still be the right thing to do even if the cost is higher than the benefit, but not if it is grossly disproportionate.  Either way, it's an argument that isn't going to be won without hard evidence - or (which is how these things actually seem to happen) without a very high profile case where people were killed due to an unsuitable engineer sidling themselves into a position they shouldn't have been in!


I do take your point that incompetent managers can (and do!) employ incompetent engineers, personally I have found in rail at least that the systems protect against that (it tends to get spotted) whereas it's the incompetent managers themselves - or more accurately, those who put money above safety - that directly cause risks by overriding or misrepresenting engineers advice. But yes, other industries may be different.


A very interesting test case for this whole subject might be the area of autonomous cars, where there is huge potential for the engineering processes to result in multiple fatalities - even just through competent engineers who "don't know what they don't know". Provided the processes are open to genuinely independent scrutiny I would be less concerned, but automotive has a reputation for valuing IP and removal of blame attribution above openness. I remember the horror of the UK rail industry in the early 2000s where private organisations refused (perfectly legally) to work with accident investigators. Sorry, gone slightly off thread there, hopefully people will see the point I'm trying to make!


I don't think there's much more I can usefully add to this discussion so I'll leave it there for the time being (although will be interested to see if anybody comments on the automotive issue).


Cheers,


Andy

Hi Roy,


Many thanks for you very well considered reply. I must admit that I always look at this from this point of view: if I was an MP would I consider that for any piece of potential legislation the potential cost (to the state or to UK plc, or in this case probably both) is outweighed by the public benefit? And of course it is reasonable to use an ALARP argument here, it may still be the right thing to do even if the cost is higher than the benefit, but not if it is grossly disproportionate.  Either way, it's an argument that isn't going to be won without hard evidence - or (which is how these things actually seem to happen) without a very high profile case where people were killed due to an unsuitable engineer sidling themselves into a position they shouldn't have been in!


I do take your point that incompetent managers can (and do!) employ incompetent engineers, personally I have found in rail at least that the systems protect against that (it tends to get spotted) whereas it's the incompetent managers themselves - or more accurately, those who put money above safety - that directly cause risks by overriding or misrepresenting engineers advice. But yes, other industries may be different.


A very interesting test case for this whole subject might be the area of autonomous cars, where there is huge potential for the engineering processes to result in multiple fatalities - even just through competent engineers who "don't know what they don't know". Provided the processes are open to genuinely independent scrutiny I would be less concerned, but automotive has a reputation for valuing IP and removal of blame attribution above openness. I remember the horror of the UK rail industry in the early 2000s where private organisations refused (perfectly legally) to work with accident investigators. Sorry, gone slightly off thread there, hopefully people will see the point I'm trying to make!


I don't think there's much more I can usefully add to this discussion so I'll leave it there for the time being (although will be interested to see if anybody comments on the automotive issue).


Cheers,


Andy