Andy Millar:11kv:
To be a bit provocative, why can't our various engineering bodies offer rigorous Pass/Fail exams similar to those offered by the various accountancy bodies. This seems fairer, more transparent and cheaper than leaving this to higher education institutions that have their own quite separate interests.Oh no, please no!!!! What on earth would they ask? There was the famous example of (IIRC) the IEE testing prospective Chartered Engineers on their knowledge of Maxwell's equations. I have never used Maxwell's equations in my entire career, despite having worked in analogue design for a fair bit of it! If that had been asked when I got my IEE CEng I suppose I would have swotted up Maxwell's equations for the purposes of achieving registration, and then probably promptly forgot them again. Not much point in that.
I don't know of course, and may well be completely wrong, but I'm guessing from your nickname that there could be pretty much no technical subject beyond Ohm's Law where you and I could answer the same questions - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, engineering is a very diverse field. (In fact there will now be many members of the IET, who should be eligible for Chartership if they don't have it yet, who don't need to know Ohm's law either. We're not the IEE any more.)
In any case, it's missing, for me, the whole point of CEng (and IEng and EngTech), which is about how you use your technical knowledge, not what your technical knowledge is. Which is exactly what the professional registration process does look at.
Back to the subject: I really don't care how today's qualifications compare to those of 20, 30, 40 years ago - what I think is important is: are they the right qualifications for what employers are looking for today? Professional registration then needs to work around that. Engineering education and professional registration are both a service to the employment community (and, to be fair, wider society), not the other way around.
(I also consider that qualifications basically expire after about 10 years - there comes a point where your work is based far more on your experience than on what you learned at college. So actually for the majority of, particularly, CEng applicants any focus on qualifications is a bit silly. So again, how today's qualifications match against old ones shouldn't matter - I just wish the recruiting arms of HR departments would understand that!)
Apologies that's a bit of a rant, but I think it's an important point: if academia is not supplying what employers want then that needs to be sorted. And I do suspect that the focus over the past 20 year or so on HE rather than FE is causing a problem, which to be fair the education community and government also seem to recognise. The PEIs should be in a good position to help facilitate this discussion - but I don't believe the majority of employers would trust them to police it.
Cheers,
Andy
On the first point, the reality is that the academic portion of an engineer's training is simply outsourced/delegated/abandoned to educational institutions. While a valid point that it is difficult to set a curriculum and assessment that will be directly relevant to all practicing engineers, this critique applies equally to the existing system. There is no system of education that doesn't involve some redundancy either; most of compulsory education is redundant in this sense yet regarded as a necessary evil. It therefore becomes an organisational question: which bodies are best placed to decide what budding engineers should study and how this knowledge should be assessed?
Andy Millar:11kv:
To be a bit provocative, why can't our various engineering bodies offer rigorous Pass/Fail exams similar to those offered by the various accountancy bodies. This seems fairer, more transparent and cheaper than leaving this to higher education institutions that have their own quite separate interests.Oh no, please no!!!! What on earth would they ask? There was the famous example of (IIRC) the IEE testing prospective Chartered Engineers on their knowledge of Maxwell's equations. I have never used Maxwell's equations in my entire career, despite having worked in analogue design for a fair bit of it! If that had been asked when I got my IEE CEng I suppose I would have swotted up Maxwell's equations for the purposes of achieving registration, and then probably promptly forgot them again. Not much point in that.
I don't know of course, and may well be completely wrong, but I'm guessing from your nickname that there could be pretty much no technical subject beyond Ohm's Law where you and I could answer the same questions - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, engineering is a very diverse field. (In fact there will now be many members of the IET, who should be eligible for Chartership if they don't have it yet, who don't need to know Ohm's law either. We're not the IEE any more.)
In any case, it's missing, for me, the whole point of CEng (and IEng and EngTech), which is about how you use your technical knowledge, not what your technical knowledge is. Which is exactly what the professional registration process does look at.
Back to the subject: I really don't care how today's qualifications compare to those of 20, 30, 40 years ago - what I think is important is: are they the right qualifications for what employers are looking for today? Professional registration then needs to work around that. Engineering education and professional registration are both a service to the employment community (and, to be fair, wider society), not the other way around.
(I also consider that qualifications basically expire after about 10 years - there comes a point where your work is based far more on your experience than on what you learned at college. So actually for the majority of, particularly, CEng applicants any focus on qualifications is a bit silly. So again, how today's qualifications match against old ones shouldn't matter - I just wish the recruiting arms of HR departments would understand that!)
Apologies that's a bit of a rant, but I think it's an important point: if academia is not supplying what employers want then that needs to be sorted. And I do suspect that the focus over the past 20 year or so on HE rather than FE is causing a problem, which to be fair the education community and government also seem to recognise. The PEIs should be in a good position to help facilitate this discussion - but I don't believe the majority of employers would trust them to police it.
Cheers,
Andy
On the first point, the reality is that the academic portion of an engineer's training is simply outsourced/delegated/abandoned to educational institutions. While a valid point that it is difficult to set a curriculum and assessment that will be directly relevant to all practicing engineers, this critique applies equally to the existing system. There is no system of education that doesn't involve some redundancy either; most of compulsory education is redundant in this sense yet regarded as a necessary evil. It therefore becomes an organisational question: which bodies are best placed to decide what budding engineers should study and how this knowledge should be assessed?
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