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Would the engineering community support a second referendum?

Timothy East
I would......
  • 0
    Hi Timothy,


    Personally I 100% agree with you! Although I don't think either faction deserves to be proud of its management of the run up to the referendum. It's interesting that buried in the now usual daily news about Brexit and Trump yesterday were the latest IPCC findings, where they made the point that there is a far more important issue which will only be solved by international co-operation. Hence, and for many other reasons, I would hope that the scientific and engineering communities are pushing to ensure that the UK doesn't end up as isolationist in their fields, whatever the other local political decisions are. I know that the universities are pressing government very hard to ensure that whatever decisions and agreements are reached do not affect international research - although I find it sad that they have to justify this by quoting the "value to the UK economy" as the main reason.


    Oh dear, I'd better go out in the sunshine for a bit to cheer myself up!


    Cheers,


    Andy
  • 0
    Well said David... thank you


    Andy  - whilst you're out there maybe try picking some fruit - get some practice in for the return of 'pick-your-own' laugh
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    Actually I was sawing some logs - very therapeutic and an equally useful skill! We've been practising pick-your-own all summer, as every summer, and have a very full freezer...


    The biggest employment impact on us locally is likely to be on the Ginsters' pasty factory - of course the local small pasty makers aren't too bothered about that, but it's going to be interesting to see what effect it has on our local town which is largely financed by Ginsters one way or another.
  • 0

    Weizhi Yao:

    Is there any analytic report of the characteristics of crowds who vote for 'yes' and who vote for 'no'?




    Oh gosh, that's a very complicated question - yes, there has been a lot of research, but you can draw any conclusion you like from it, and both sides have. Here's a couple: the same data shows that either the remain voters were educated as imperialists and are stuck in their ways while the leave voters were open minded and co-operative, or that the remain voters were naive and easily led, whilst the leave voters were experienced and worldly wise!


    I believe that there was a positive correlation between having received tertiary education and voting remain, which if true is the factor that concerns me the most (given the outcome of the vote) but I haven't checked the source data on this.* Similarly I believe that there was a positive correlation between those that worked with (and therefore presumably understood) EU organisation and voting remain, but there i'm even less sure of the underlying data, and I'm sure it could be argued that there's selection bias in that. Sociological statistics are phenomenally difficult to interpret with any degree of accuracy, particularly to determine cause and effect!


    What I find almost more interesting is the characteristics of the influential organisations, companies and individuals who promoted one side or the other in the run up to the referendum. For example, one particular point I noticed is that many of the businesses and business leaders that pushed for leave will benefit greatly from a relaxation or reduction in the "employees rights" that were introduced in EU legislation (amongst other "restrictive" legislation). And I think many would be quite open in admitting this, that by doing so they can increase their revenue and profitability and so employ more people. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is a very complex political and ethical matter for debate, but it's the sort of point that the UK working population needs to be aware of. 


    A similar issue arises in my field, the application of engineering safety standards. There are engineering companies who pushed for leave who have complained about EU "red tape" - and this gives me cause for concern. I'm not going to say that EU engineering standards are perfect, they absolutely aren't and many of us are working hard to improve them, but  in my experience they are pretty good provided they are applied correctly and intelligently, and I am very wary of organisations that try to avoid them. I honestly believe that a medium or large engineering company that is reaching world-class standards in its engineering processes should be able to sail through EU standards, so if they complain about red tape - particularly while I'm assessing them! - I'd like to know what they are up to. There are challenges for small companies, and there I do sympathise.


    Interesting point, thanks,


    Andy


    * Of course even if true it can be argued that this is because universities are a hot bed of radical anti-patriotic brainwashing. These types of arguments always amuse me, given that anyone who's ever worked with academia knows that any two academics will never agree with each other on anything. The best way to start an academic arguing is to put them in a room with another academic.

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    Last thought - or I'll be working until midnight again - I think I'm less bothered about another referendum (which I doubt will be any clearer than the last one was) than about parliament having free debates and votes on the issue, that seems to be a big challenge at the moment. When the most popular newspaper in the country brands judges "enemies of the people" for stating that the law says that elected representatives should debate and agree a critical political decision then I...feel like I need to go and saw some logs again. (Old news, said newspaper is, of course, now under new editorship. But still scary that it could easily happen again.) I feel the press - on all sides - have probably come out with the least credibility of anyone in the whole business - but again, their owners would argue that ethics and politics isn't their business, their business is to sell newspapers or airtime, so if people want to buy anger and outrage it's their job to provide it. Even my favourite, the BBC, in their desperation to be impartial seems to have ended up annoying everyone.


    More important to me as to whether we are in or out of the UK is whether we are or aren't a society that values debate, collaboration and synthesis of the best solution over arrogance and condescension. But it's a huge human problem, those who have certainty on an issue can fight single mindedly for that issue. Unfortunately most issues nowadays are too complex to have one person's certainty, so us liberals (small 'l') appear to bumble around working towards a solution, meanwhile how much more appealing is someone who flies in with the certainty of their magic fix!


    Phew...right, back to the uncertainty of assessing a safety argument for a safety-critical system...whenever a client states something as an obvious fact I immediately doubt it!


    Cheers,


    Andy
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    Can’t we go back to what type of clocks we like best, or was that a cunning tactic to drag Switzerland into the argument devil I hope that I don’t have to get the blue beret out of the loftfrown. Our brexiteer members were the outsiders trying to upset the  “status quo” and now the position is reversed. I agree completely that when the dust settles, we will need to manage whatever challenges are presented.  Without empirical evidence to support it, I would expect a majority of IET members to favour remain, but even if they do, what right do we have to “take a side” against the minority who won the public vote, it just isn’t our function.  Obviously rational discussion about the best way forward , including the option of calling the whole thing off , is fair enough, but let’s tread carefully through this emotive minefieldangel.


    My own perspective is; I can confirm from first-hand knowledge that the result of the referendum aka “Brexit” has damaged some UK business, it also clear that there is a risk of further damage going forward. However some have benefited, through exchange rate movements for example. At this stage we still cannot have any clear picture of the short, medium and long term consequences of our decisions, whatever they actually turn out to be.


    From a purely personal point of view, my wife (of nearly 30 years standing) who is a dual UK and Polish National and I, were just getting on with our lives in which the EU was “part of the furniture”. Some others didn’t like that furniture so it is now scheduled to be thrown out. We can only hope that whatever we end up with does its job. If we do break, then only history will tell whether the EU was insidiously poisonous or good for us all along. If we don’t, then we will need to repay all that we have squandered in the effort to leave so far, whilst managing the consequences of millions feeling betrayed. Either way, prosperity is a great healer, without most people feeling its benefits, residual bitterness will linger for at least a generation.        

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    Mark Tickner:



    And it's not acceptable for millions of remain voters to feel betrayed?  It wasn't exactly a clear vote!


    It was a close vote but cancelling Brexit will re-ignite UKIP and the chances are that it will emerge as an alt-right party or a Griffinite BNP clone under Gerard Batten rather than a more mainstream and middle of the road party. Even Nigel Farage has criticised Gerard Batten for his unsavoury views. On the other hand, a fairly hard Brexit will render UKIP redundant and exhausted.




    Personally, I suspect that leaving the EU will not actually resolve all the issues that the UKIP voters are moaning about (some of them, yes). 


    I agree with this but not every leave voter was a UKIP supporter. Different people had different reasons to vote leave.

     

  • 0

    Roy Bowdler:
    Can’t we go back to what type of clocks we like best...




    I went to the British Museum the weekend before last, the clocks and watches gallery is absolutely fantastic there, many of them are working. Highly recommended!


    And watching Steve Fletcher repairing clocks and watches on the Repair Shop is fantastic therapy. I really wish I had the steadiness of hand to do that...I read an interview with him where he said there is a dire shortage of horologists now.



     

  • 0
    In my opinion a second referendum would be a betrayal of democracy. The question was simple in or out. Those who voted out had a variety of reasons; I voted out because I saw it as the last opportunity to re-establish democratic principles in this country. The EU has long failed to demonstrate any acceptance of democracy unless the voting has gone its way. David Cameron's negotiations were a complete joke. If there was a second referendum, and if it did reverse the vote then I would never bother voting in any political election again - what would be the point? As for making our European neighbours feel welcome - there is nothing to stop that, just as there wasn't before the advent of the EU - but why just European neighbours? Sadly the EU is a corrupt elitist organisation that seeks to control the will of the people; if it were open and democratic then it would have been a different story and there probably wouldn't have been a referendum. One other thing; please don't assume all engineers are pro EU as some seem to believe!
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Sense at last, well put Ian

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