Roy Bowdler:
As someone who spent much of their early career in an almost exclusively male workplace of heavy engineering, where dirty overalls, hard hats and sexist attitudes were just normal. Much progress has been made over the last 30 years on gender issues in technical workplaces, but there is still much work to do. There is also much to do in addressing social-mobility, which sociologists assert has reduced in that time.  Many of those Chartered Engineers towards the end of their careers were products of the grammar school system, or were able to study at an affordable cost in “night school” during their twenties and thirties. Others slightly younger were given grants by local authorities to attend university provided they were reasonably successful in school.  We now have a highly competitive school system and very costly higher education system.  For example, I was speaking to a friend last week who has invested hugely in getting their son to pass his 11+ exam. A successful engineering graduate will also have to pay back their student loan. A good apprenticeship may be the answer, but there are not enough of them, spread widely enough and this “traditional” pathway even became stigmatised in recent decades.

I think that engineering is to a certain degree a 'closed shop' career not always easy for somebody outside of the 'fraternity' to enter. It has been mentioned to me that a high proportion of engineers in Britain tick the following boxes:


1. Are white indigenous British folk.

2. Come from an upper middle class background with a fraction (of clever kids) from a lower middle class background, but rarely any from truly wealthy backgrounds nor the traditional working class or lower class backgrounds.

3. Lived in the suburbs or smaller towns during their childhood, with far fewer from urban or deep rural areas.

4. Passed their 11 plus and attended a grammar school or attended a lower ranking but very academic independent school.

5. Enjoyed their time at school and did well academically.

6. Did not have any SEN or disabilities during their childhood.

7. Are not particularly religious although those who are religious are mainly Protestant Christians. Other religions are uncommon.

8. Generally apolitical and not interested in politics but usually vote Conservative or (before 2015?) Lib-Dem. I haven't got any figures but support for smaller parties amongst engineers is probably lower than the national average. Anecdotal evidence points in a direction that engineers who are fans of Jeremy Corbyn are exceptional cases - most I have met detest him.

9. Pro-EU.

10. Sympathetic towards Israel !!!

11. Hold a generally negative view towards ex-cons becoming engineers, or even having any decent job at all.

12. Have a parent or a close relative who is an engineer.

Of course we need to ensure that pre-teens develop curiosity about how the world around them is constructed by mankind.  We then need to nurture that curiosity to turn it into an intellectual one, enabling those with an aptitude for a technical career to progress it.  If what we are achieving is just a series of tripping-points, that potentially crush any early enthusiasm, or allowing some to misuse our name to perpetuate forms of snobbery, then we need to address this.  

There is a question whether (professional) engineers should be hobbyists during their childhood or whether they should be good scholars? I think that most professional engineering institutions favour good scholars over hobbyists similar to how you have previously explained with the calculus.

Does anyone have direct personal experience of these issues and if so what should we do? Perhaps you disagree with my frame of reference? Are the issues in IT/Computing the same, or is that just cultural?        

Not to the same degree as engineering. It's quite common to find IT and software developer types who come from lower class or non-technical family backgrounds; did not do well at school and / or did not enjoy school; have more diverse religious and political views; and dare I say, have been to jail.

Roy Bowdler:
As someone who spent much of their early career in an almost exclusively male workplace of heavy engineering, where dirty overalls, hard hats and sexist attitudes were just normal. Much progress has been made over the last 30 years on gender issues in technical workplaces, but there is still much work to do. There is also much to do in addressing social-mobility, which sociologists assert has reduced in that time.  Many of those Chartered Engineers towards the end of their careers were products of the grammar school system, or were able to study at an affordable cost in “night school” during their twenties and thirties. Others slightly younger were given grants by local authorities to attend university provided they were reasonably successful in school.  We now have a highly competitive school system and very costly higher education system.  For example, I was speaking to a friend last week who has invested hugely in getting their son to pass his 11+ exam. A successful engineering graduate will also have to pay back their student loan. A good apprenticeship may be the answer, but there are not enough of them, spread widely enough and this “traditional” pathway even became stigmatised in recent decades.

I think that engineering is to a certain degree a 'closed shop' career not always easy for somebody outside of the 'fraternity' to enter. It has been mentioned to me that a high proportion of engineers in Britain tick the following boxes:


1. Are white indigenous British folk.

2. Come from an upper middle class background with a fraction (of clever kids) from a lower middle class background, but rarely any from truly wealthy backgrounds nor the traditional working class or lower class backgrounds.

3. Lived in the suburbs or smaller towns during their childhood, with far fewer from urban or deep rural areas.

4. Passed their 11 plus and attended a grammar school or attended a lower ranking but very academic independent school.

5. Enjoyed their time at school and did well academically.

6. Did not have any SEN or disabilities during their childhood.

7. Are not particularly religious although those who are religious are mainly Protestant Christians. Other religions are uncommon.

8. Generally apolitical and not interested in politics but usually vote Conservative or (before 2015?) Lib-Dem. I haven't got any figures but support for smaller parties amongst engineers is probably lower than the national average. Anecdotal evidence points in a direction that engineers who are fans of Jeremy Corbyn are exceptional cases - most I have met detest him.

9. Pro-EU.

10. Sympathetic towards Israel !!!

11. Hold a generally negative view towards ex-cons becoming engineers, or even having any decent job at all.

12. Have a parent or a close relative who is an engineer.

Of course we need to ensure that pre-teens develop curiosity about how the world around them is constructed by mankind.  We then need to nurture that curiosity to turn it into an intellectual one, enabling those with an aptitude for a technical career to progress it.  If what we are achieving is just a series of tripping-points, that potentially crush any early enthusiasm, or allowing some to misuse our name to perpetuate forms of snobbery, then we need to address this.  

There is a question whether (professional) engineers should be hobbyists during their childhood or whether they should be good scholars? I think that most professional engineering institutions favour good scholars over hobbyists similar to how you have previously explained with the calculus.

Does anyone have direct personal experience of these issues and if so what should we do? Perhaps you disagree with my frame of reference? Are the issues in IT/Computing the same, or is that just cultural?        

Not to the same degree as engineering. It's quite common to find IT and software developer types who come from lower class or non-technical family backgrounds; did not do well at school and / or did not enjoy school; have more diverse religious and political views; and dare I say, have been to jail.