Roy Bowdler:
Arran,


I warmly welcome someone taking a sociological perspective and your characterisation of engineering as mostly a “fraternity”, seems reasonable. Perhaps a number of different fraternities, which are partly social-class based?

There definitely are fraternities within fraternities in engineering but it seems to be more along the lines of different types of engineering, and the organisations which employ large numbers of such engineers, more than other factors. Audio engineering is definitely split into different fraternities each with their own different (and sometimes conflicting) technical standards.

Without some sort of empirical research, I couldn’t give much credance your 12 factors, but they are an interesting perspective, based I assume on your direct personal experience and/or perhaps some supposition?

I can't guarantee the validity of these 12 factors. Some of them have provoked a few queries as to exactly how one arrived at such a conclusion or how reliable any data was to start with, especially as I have encountered engineers who do not tick several of the boxes. Whether they are exceptional cases or not is difficult for me to determine.

I haven’t brought ethnicity into this because I don’t think that it is now a significant issue in UK engineering, separate to social class and educational opportunities. Obviously some groups in society are socially disadvantaged, including many from a White British heritage and I’m not suggesting that there are no issues. However, I would be surprised and outraged to discover any recent evidence of racism within our professional community.

I actually think it's more an issue of culture surrounding particular ethnic groups rather than one purely of race. In a local mosque you will find several doctors, pharmacists, accountants, teachers, and even some lawyers who rub shoulders with taxi drivers, takeaway workers, and many others in low skill low pay jobs, but you won't find many engineers there. Neither will you find many people who work in the media or broadcasting, or even bricklayers or double glazing fitters.


Could it be safe to say that some careers appeal more or less to certain ethnic groups than they do to others independent of the levels or skills and qualifications, pay, and the socioeconomic group most associated with them? One factor could be whether it's common to find people already in these careers or not. If a young teenager who uses the mosque wants to know more about a career in medicine or accountancy then he will be able to easily find people in these occupations for advice but if he wants to know more about a career in engineering or double glazing then there might not be anybody who can help him. The end result is that young teenagers who use the mosque will tend to gravitate towards careers where help and advice are available, as they are a safer bet, and avoid venturing into uncharted territory like engineering unless they are courageous or have support from elsewhere. 

Many incumbent Chartered Engineers would aspire towards parity of esteem in society with medical doctors. This seems to me an unlikely prospect. An obvious parallel would be the differences between a “Doctor” and Nurse, the latter being a female dominated role, held in high public affection, but also seen as being “of lower rank” (like we see our own IEng). Medical doctors are divided in various ways, but all are generally held in high esteem.  More realistic comparisons might be roles such as architects, surveyors, managers (various) and accountants, which overlap to some extent with engineering? Is there something to learn from the mainly Social Science based HR profession, or from areas that favour Biology as their main underlying science?  There also seem superficially at least to be plenty of female mathematicians, astronomers or astrophysicists etc?

The executive car market split into two sectors in the 1980s and 90s. A more prestigious sector with cars from Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and later Lexus. A less prestigious sector with cars from Ford, Vauxhall, Peugeot, Renault, and Rover. The companies in the more prestigious sector are still strong players today but the companies in the less prestigious sector have withdrawn or reduced their presence in the executive car market and focused their strengths elsewhere, or in the case of Rover gone bust.


Do engineers have anything to learn from this?

Roy Bowdler:
Arran,


I warmly welcome someone taking a sociological perspective and your characterisation of engineering as mostly a “fraternity”, seems reasonable. Perhaps a number of different fraternities, which are partly social-class based?

There definitely are fraternities within fraternities in engineering but it seems to be more along the lines of different types of engineering, and the organisations which employ large numbers of such engineers, more than other factors. Audio engineering is definitely split into different fraternities each with their own different (and sometimes conflicting) technical standards.

Without some sort of empirical research, I couldn’t give much credance your 12 factors, but they are an interesting perspective, based I assume on your direct personal experience and/or perhaps some supposition?

I can't guarantee the validity of these 12 factors. Some of them have provoked a few queries as to exactly how one arrived at such a conclusion or how reliable any data was to start with, especially as I have encountered engineers who do not tick several of the boxes. Whether they are exceptional cases or not is difficult for me to determine.

I haven’t brought ethnicity into this because I don’t think that it is now a significant issue in UK engineering, separate to social class and educational opportunities. Obviously some groups in society are socially disadvantaged, including many from a White British heritage and I’m not suggesting that there are no issues. However, I would be surprised and outraged to discover any recent evidence of racism within our professional community.

I actually think it's more an issue of culture surrounding particular ethnic groups rather than one purely of race. In a local mosque you will find several doctors, pharmacists, accountants, teachers, and even some lawyers who rub shoulders with taxi drivers, takeaway workers, and many others in low skill low pay jobs, but you won't find many engineers there. Neither will you find many people who work in the media or broadcasting, or even bricklayers or double glazing fitters.


Could it be safe to say that some careers appeal more or less to certain ethnic groups than they do to others independent of the levels or skills and qualifications, pay, and the socioeconomic group most associated with them? One factor could be whether it's common to find people already in these careers or not. If a young teenager who uses the mosque wants to know more about a career in medicine or accountancy then he will be able to easily find people in these occupations for advice but if he wants to know more about a career in engineering or double glazing then there might not be anybody who can help him. The end result is that young teenagers who use the mosque will tend to gravitate towards careers where help and advice are available, as they are a safer bet, and avoid venturing into uncharted territory like engineering unless they are courageous or have support from elsewhere. 

Many incumbent Chartered Engineers would aspire towards parity of esteem in society with medical doctors. This seems to me an unlikely prospect. An obvious parallel would be the differences between a “Doctor” and Nurse, the latter being a female dominated role, held in high public affection, but also seen as being “of lower rank” (like we see our own IEng). Medical doctors are divided in various ways, but all are generally held in high esteem.  More realistic comparisons might be roles such as architects, surveyors, managers (various) and accountants, which overlap to some extent with engineering? Is there something to learn from the mainly Social Science based HR profession, or from areas that favour Biology as their main underlying science?  There also seem superficially at least to be plenty of female mathematicians, astronomers or astrophysicists etc?

The executive car market split into two sectors in the 1980s and 90s. A more prestigious sector with cars from Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and later Lexus. A less prestigious sector with cars from Ford, Vauxhall, Peugeot, Renault, and Rover. The companies in the more prestigious sector are still strong players today but the companies in the less prestigious sector have withdrawn or reduced their presence in the executive car market and focused their strengths elsewhere, or in the case of Rover gone bust.


Do engineers have anything to learn from this?