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Calvin Asks: Is having Physics A-level a 'must have' to do an Engineering Degree?

My son wants to be an engineer when he grows up. He is doing his GCSE’s this year and getting ready to choose his A-Levels, but his school has a new physics teacher, whom he HATES! He is now adamant he won’t be choosing physics at A-Level, but I’m worried that he’ll struggle to get onto an engineering course at a good university without it.

He doesn’t want to change schools as all his friends are staying; it’s one of the best schools in the area and local too, so I don’t really want him to have to move either. So my question is, does he need a physics A-Level or can he get by without it?

A-Level dilemmas - Darlington

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Parents

0 Roy Bowdler over 5 years ago

Going back to the original question, I can infer that the dilemma rests with a 15/16 year old, living in Darlington, who has expressed an aspiration to pursue a career in “Engineering” , with a parent who very wisely doesn’t want him to make poor choices for the wrong reasons, that might limit his options. The parent’s aspiration is for their son to attend a “good” university. The attachment by the son to “following his friends in staying on” suggests that he isn’t at this stage focussed on gaining employment , although things can change quickly at that age , especially if age group peers have money in their pocket and you don’t. Not knowing the type(s) of engineering role he has become interested in and how much academic potential he has , makes the question is more difficult.

The easiest option is to keep “kicking the can down the road”. For example I met someone at an exhibition who was aged 23 and came along with their parent, they had a good engineering degree but no relevant work-experience, or clarity about how to turn this into a career. At the time tuition fees were only £3000 pa. In that situation today that person could have a debt of £40000+. This is not an imaginary debt, never to be paid off, because someone with a degree in engineering should enjoy a career of above average earnings. Most people over the age of 38 didn’t have to pay any fees to attend university and those older still may have been eligible for a government grant as well. I would have been eligible, but I didn’t have any role models to follow, thought that university was just for “swots” and got offered an apprenticeship by the best local employer. I don’t know the family circumstances, but if they are less than “very comfortable” the financial aspect is important.

I mentioned having a role model to follow, likely to be a major influence on a young person of that age, whether that person is a parent or someone else. Those who are most likely to attend the “best” universities, tend to have some family history of an advantaged education and social capital. It can be a great advantage in gaining access as a graduate to certain professions, to “know the right people”. This also applies to gaining an apprenticeship, although the two alternative pathways, have historically tended to attract different social classes, leading to some assumptions and prejudices. Engineering is relatively meritocratic, so it isn’t much of a barrier to come “from the wrong side of the tracks” if you succeed academically, but I have encountered people from more disadvantaged backgrounds, who despite having done well academically (e.g. MEng) find themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to peers.

My question of the parent here is; do you potentially foresee your son studying at Teesside or Durham University? Both offer some similar degree courses (e.g. MEng), one is held to be more “prestigious” than the other and sets a higher tariff, although both charge similar fees. The social and geographic profile of students will be different. When it comes to gaining employment as a graduate engineer, I would expect that within the local market of employers in the area, someone from the Teesside programme would be at no disadvantage, some employers might have close links with the course for recruitment. Nationally and internationally the Durham graduate would potentially be at an advantage in certain situations.

Coming back to the issue of “Return on Investment”. I would suggest that; a Degree Apprenticeship or one including the option of eventually gaining a degree by studying part-time with employer support, will very probably offer a better return over a lifetime, than being a full-time student at a typical post 92 university. Assuming that the apprenticeship option is available. Study at a university that is considered prestigious (i.e. not just “good”, but “very exceptionally good”), with a highly competitive and academically selective admissions policy, has a better chance of producing a life time earnings premium, although this isn’t anywhere near as certain as some claim, relative to something like an apprenticeship, or other “more vocational” option. It may also be the case that the social capital of those attending the more prestigious universities forms a large part of any advantage. If your son has aspirations to become a professor of engineering, of otherwise pursue a research orientated career, then the answer would obvious. Such careers may offer “above average”, rather than “high” financial rewards, but can be very satisfying and held in high esteem.

The landscape is changing, with the government and some universities promoting “Degree Apprenticeships” like this https://www.herts.ac.uk/degree-apprenticeships . Such options used to be have been around for a long time, although from the 1980s on a modest scale. This “new” model was at least part built on examples like a “Student Engineer and Commercial Student Training Programme” that I used to lead. Almost without exception, graduates of this programme are now in senior industry roles, including several directors by early 30s.

Publicity was given over the last weekend to “two-year degrees”. The BEng in Manufacturing Engineering at Wolverhampton University accelerated by work-based learning, came to my attention some time ago and I wish them well. Talk at the weekend was of more intensive study , such as by longer hours and shorter holidays, for full-time undergraduates.

If your son is highly intelligent and likely to gain admission to one of the most selective universities, then I would suggest “keeping his nose the academic grindstone”. However probably the most important thing, that I would try to do for my son, is encourage him to identify and interact with different role models. Build social capital among those who might offer insight and/or be able to offer opportunities like work-experience.

Assuming that he doesn’t become frustrated or disillusioned by school, then he may have up to three years before “adult choices” come upon him. He can delay hard choices for a few more years by studying for a degree aligned to his talents , but this could be costly. You are probably familiar with university graduates in jobs that don’t need a degree, this doesn’t mean that the person or the degree course was “bad”, but simply that they weren’t able to access a “graduate level job” , where they wanted (or could afford) to live, or were outcompeted by others for the limited number of such jobs.

I appreciate that this is quite a long and complex answer to an apparently simple question. I wish that the issues were simpler, like they were in the past for some of us , with if we were lucky our parents “Making Plans for Nigel” .
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0 Roy Bowdler over 5 years ago

Going back to the original question, I can infer that the dilemma rests with a 15/16 year old, living in Darlington, who has expressed an aspiration to pursue a career in “Engineering” , with a parent who very wisely doesn’t want him to make poor choices for the wrong reasons, that might limit his options. The parent’s aspiration is for their son to attend a “good” university. The attachment by the son to “following his friends in staying on” suggests that he isn’t at this stage focussed on gaining employment , although things can change quickly at that age , especially if age group peers have money in their pocket and you don’t. Not knowing the type(s) of engineering role he has become interested in and how much academic potential he has , makes the question is more difficult.

The easiest option is to keep “kicking the can down the road”. For example I met someone at an exhibition who was aged 23 and came along with their parent, they had a good engineering degree but no relevant work-experience, or clarity about how to turn this into a career. At the time tuition fees were only £3000 pa. In that situation today that person could have a debt of £40000+. This is not an imaginary debt, never to be paid off, because someone with a degree in engineering should enjoy a career of above average earnings. Most people over the age of 38 didn’t have to pay any fees to attend university and those older still may have been eligible for a government grant as well. I would have been eligible, but I didn’t have any role models to follow, thought that university was just for “swots” and got offered an apprenticeship by the best local employer. I don’t know the family circumstances, but if they are less than “very comfortable” the financial aspect is important.

I mentioned having a role model to follow, likely to be a major influence on a young person of that age, whether that person is a parent or someone else. Those who are most likely to attend the “best” universities, tend to have some family history of an advantaged education and social capital. It can be a great advantage in gaining access as a graduate to certain professions, to “know the right people”. This also applies to gaining an apprenticeship, although the two alternative pathways, have historically tended to attract different social classes, leading to some assumptions and prejudices. Engineering is relatively meritocratic, so it isn’t much of a barrier to come “from the wrong side of the tracks” if you succeed academically, but I have encountered people from more disadvantaged backgrounds, who despite having done well academically (e.g. MEng) find themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to peers.

My question of the parent here is; do you potentially foresee your son studying at Teesside or Durham University? Both offer some similar degree courses (e.g. MEng), one is held to be more “prestigious” than the other and sets a higher tariff, although both charge similar fees. The social and geographic profile of students will be different. When it comes to gaining employment as a graduate engineer, I would expect that within the local market of employers in the area, someone from the Teesside programme would be at no disadvantage, some employers might have close links with the course for recruitment. Nationally and internationally the Durham graduate would potentially be at an advantage in certain situations.

Coming back to the issue of “Return on Investment”. I would suggest that; a Degree Apprenticeship or one including the option of eventually gaining a degree by studying part-time with employer support, will very probably offer a better return over a lifetime, than being a full-time student at a typical post 92 university. Assuming that the apprenticeship option is available. Study at a university that is considered prestigious (i.e. not just “good”, but “very exceptionally good”), with a highly competitive and academically selective admissions policy, has a better chance of producing a life time earnings premium, although this isn’t anywhere near as certain as some claim, relative to something like an apprenticeship, or other “more vocational” option. It may also be the case that the social capital of those attending the more prestigious universities forms a large part of any advantage. If your son has aspirations to become a professor of engineering, of otherwise pursue a research orientated career, then the answer would obvious. Such careers may offer “above average”, rather than “high” financial rewards, but can be very satisfying and held in high esteem.

The landscape is changing, with the government and some universities promoting “Degree Apprenticeships” like this https://www.herts.ac.uk/degree-apprenticeships . Such options used to be have been around for a long time, although from the 1980s on a modest scale. This “new” model was at least part built on examples like a “Student Engineer and Commercial Student Training Programme” that I used to lead. Almost without exception, graduates of this programme are now in senior industry roles, including several directors by early 30s.

Publicity was given over the last weekend to “two-year degrees”. The BEng in Manufacturing Engineering at Wolverhampton University accelerated by work-based learning, came to my attention some time ago and I wish them well. Talk at the weekend was of more intensive study , such as by longer hours and shorter holidays, for full-time undergraduates.

If your son is highly intelligent and likely to gain admission to one of the most selective universities, then I would suggest “keeping his nose the academic grindstone”. However probably the most important thing, that I would try to do for my son, is encourage him to identify and interact with different role models. Build social capital among those who might offer insight and/or be able to offer opportunities like work-experience.

Assuming that he doesn’t become frustrated or disillusioned by school, then he may have up to three years before “adult choices” come upon him. He can delay hard choices for a few more years by studying for a degree aligned to his talents , but this could be costly. You are probably familiar with university graduates in jobs that don’t need a degree, this doesn’t mean that the person or the degree course was “bad”, but simply that they weren’t able to access a “graduate level job” , where they wanted (or could afford) to live, or were outcompeted by others for the limited number of such jobs.

I appreciate that this is quite a long and complex answer to an apparently simple question. I wish that the issues were simpler, like they were in the past for some of us , with if we were lucky our parents “Making Plans for Nigel” .
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Calvin Asks: Is having Physics A-level a 'must have' to do an Engineering Degree?

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