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Why Doesn't Britain Have a Huauei of its own?

Peter Brooks
This was the headline in the Guardian Opinion section for May 8 th 2019 written by Aditya Chakrabortty.


To answer this question he examines the history of GEC after Arnold Weinstock left in 1996  and <quote> "all hell broke loose" with the appointment of George Simpson (an accountant), and John Mayo (from the Merchant Banking world).


Even companies outside of Britain (examples RCA and Westinghouse)  have been afflicted by the same upper management failures.


What does Britain have to do to create a business climate that will allow world class companies to thrive?


Peter Brooks MIET

Palm Bay Florida USA
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    Andy:


    You point about what should Universities teach the students is very valid. With the acceleration of technology, the job market is a moving target. Today's computer based tools will become obsolete in 4 years.


    Currently I am taking a course in processing big data sets using Python software .


    In 1960 I took my first computer course using assembly language. Since that time I have had to learn multiple (now obsolete) languages up to C++. -- AND I AM NOT A COMPUTER SCIENTIST!


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA


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    Andy:


    Again showing my age, when I was growing up there were both State run and Private (for profit) run schools .


    The Private run schools had a higher level of teachers and equipment (physics, chemistry and maths).


    The Labor government after WWII paid the private schools to accept children from low income families.


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA
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    Hello Roy:


    I looked at your referenced book but it's only available for sale.


    Another piece of my history - up to the age of 11, I spent most of my life living around " The Scrubs" prison.


    My father and many other's in the family were Prison Warders. I met many "trusted" prisoners (both adult and teenagers) who mowed gardens and general outside clean up work. 


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida  USA
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    Peter Brooks:

    Regarding universities -they are big money making organizations...




    Yep, in the western world we live in a free market economy where that's seen as a Good Thing, personally I'd disagree with it but millions wouldn't!




    ....that are selling prestige and the (usually unfulfilled) promise of setting up the student to earn lots of money for the rest of their life.




    I'd say marketing rather than selling. And the problem from the Unis point of view is that this seems to be what the "customers" want - by "customers" I mean the (hugely influential) parents of prospective students. It's very interesting going to Univ open days (I did a lot of this with my offspring a few years ago), questions from parents tend to be either "how likely are your graduates to find work" or "are your applicants guaranteed en-suite accommodation if they request it". (Being a Bad Parent I didn't ask either of these questions! I did ask rather a lot of others though...) So, in a competitive market, Unis have to market what their customers are looking for, otherwise no-one applies and they go bankrupt. You're likely to find that individual lecturers have a different attitude.


    None of which is relevant to this thread, but it is important (I'm not just being provocative!), we (Western society) are demanding certain behaviours from our Unis, which is fine, we just shouldn't criticise them - as the media often does - for delivering exactly what they've been asked to deliver, particularly when it's not necessarily what they really want to do in the first place. And coming back to our profession in particular, I am very concerned that we could drive our universities towards training "employment ready" engineers, who will be obsolete a few years later, and away from providing an education that will allow those graduates to ultimately change the face of engineering. Which is supposed to be the whole point of Uni education. And you don't get Huaueis without that.


    Cheers,


    Andy


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    Peter Brooks:

    Most of the people doing apprenticeships (or whatever alternate name it was given) lacked an adequate level of math's and science from their previous state schooling, to make it all the way through.




    I'm not quite sure why you thought the word "state" was relevant there, but putting that to one side...from the mid '90s to early '00s I was pleased to work at a company which had a very active apprenticeship programme, and which would then sponsor those interested and capable through a degree programme. Our local university (ex Polytechnic) thoroughly supported this, and - recognising that HNCs do not cover A level maths (they don't need to) - provided the extra maths tuition to take these students up to the level of A level. Several of them ended up as very senior staff. My experience now is that most UK universities have woken up to the fact that it is worth providing "baselining" maths tuition since a lack of A level maths does not mean ultimate incompetence in degree level engineering, it just means that person may have decided to do something else between the ages of 15-18 and then changed their mind.


    So I would agree your statement applied up to, say, 25-30 years ago in the UK. I am delighted to say it now doesn't.


    Now, personally, and based on no evidence whatsoever, my opinion is that one of the reasons why the UK doesn't have a Huauei is because of two engineering attitudes that permeated the industry from the '50s to the '90s (and are still sometimes hanging around today, sadly particularly in the PEIs) - one being "professional engineers only come from grammar schools, with straight A levels, and then straight into an engineering degree which teaches them the facts (grrr...) of engineering", the other being "engineering is all about learning a trade and doing it exactly the same as your dad and grandad did". * Both of these attitudes (again as a personal opinion) are anathema to high-tech innovation. The truly innovative, ground breaking, yet professional teams I've worked in have thrived by throwing a wide mixture of people from all sorts of backgrounds and education together - and by supporting any of them to pursue further education if they wanted it.


    Hence why I really support the mixed apprenticeship and degree approach, and just apprenticeships, and just degrees (including degrees in other subjects) - get a group of people with all these backgrounds together and make sure they respect each other and you too can have a mini Huauei. Of course for a real Huauei you probably need the population of China...


    Cheers,


    Andy


    * These attitudes were also based on the idea that the 11 plus exam was an exercise in perfection. It wasn't. 


  • 0
    Peter, I fear that we may be straying into general Social History.  I remember reading this book when it came out and I found it more interesting than equations?  https://academic.oup.com/bjsw/article-abstract/38/4/830/1649013


  • 0
    Roy:


    Just to add to my previous comment.


    It appears to me that at the end of a period of extreme austerity (example WW1 or WW11 or 2019 in the UK), extreme social instability occurs within the younger generation.


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA
  • 0
    Hello Roy:


    Maybe it was because it was a different era (with Teddy Boys) and industrial actions (strikes).


    I had to walk through a picket line a number of times and run the factory production equipment while the strikes were going on.

     

    Most of the people doing apprenticeships (or whatever alternate name it was given) lacked an adequate level of math's and science from their previous state schooling, to make it all the way through.


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA

  • 0
    Hello Peter, I wonder why our experiences and perception of part-time study are so different?  


    As a 21 year old (with an HNC), I considered enrolment on one of the very few part-time degrees then available. It was conducted over five years, one day and evening per week with no advanced standing for having an HNC. However, weighing up the costs versus benefits, they just didn’t stack up and I signed up at my nearest Polytechnic for an industrial management course instead. However, my more recent experience was as a Company Training Manager where I ran a highly successful and award winning Student Engineer and Commercial Student training programme (aka Apprenticeship). During each year trainees spent about 10-12 weeks (in 4-6 week blocks) first at a college then a university with the remainder spent at work, but with academic assignments to complete. This was an intense 4 year scheme. I am aware that The IET has recently accredited a two-year intensive BEng for CEng as part of a Degree Apprenticeship. Although the Washington Accord won't accept that because they just count the number of years spent in university.

        

    I don’t want to take your proposition off at a tangent. How we train and recognise engineers is only a part of the issue and the work of Michael Porter (which I read during my part-time MBA) might be more relevant?  https://hbr.org/1990/03/the-competitive-advantage-of-nations .  


  • 0
    Hello Roy: 


    It is my personal experience that mixing some sort of apprenticeship (providing practical training) with part time degree level education in Polytechnics was not an efficient system.


    The ratio of individuals starting a 4-5 year program who actually reached a level to become a  IEE graduate was (I estimate)  about 1 in 200.


    The practical training could be good in some companies, but some companies used apprenticeship programs as a source of low cost labor to beak unions. 


    Regarding universities -they are big money making organizations that are selling prestige and the (usually unfulfilled) promise of setting up the student to earn lots of money for the rest of their life.


    My local university has a large number of foreign students (Chinese, Caribbean, Egyptian and other Arab Nationals).


     I have personally questioned them about why they selected this particular university. Their answers were the climate, near the Orlando attractions, the beach and surfing. 


    The university is now having financial problems as the current federal administration is limiting the number of visas from certain countries. 


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA

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