Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 29 replies
  • Subscribers 17 subscribers
  • Views 3418 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

HS2 railway

CliveS
We would all agree that an express link fro London to Birmingham and Manchester would be of great benefit BUT do we have to electrify the entire length of track or just the parts inside city boundaries. 

We can half the construction/infrastructure cost if we use diesel electric trains cross country and convert to electric only inside the city. 

This is environmentally friendly as power stations are only 60% efficient at best and mostly use gas at normal/peak times anyway; isn't it ??
Parents
  • 0

    CliveS:

    Yes, if you can generate electricity by solar, wind, tidal or hydro at a cheaper price per unit, than burning hydrocarbon fuel then it could be worth electrifying a railway line. But electrification of cross country in UK or interstate is a waste of money and materials and is just bad economics. 

    See website  https://nottenergy.com/our-services/resources/energy-cost-comparison/  

    A 600 kW diesel electric train may only be 40% efficient but that is the same price energy wise than purchasing from the grid and you save all the electric infrastructure costs.


    EXAMPLE  run a train from London to Birmingham for one hour at 90 miles per hour with engine running on average 50% throttle. Total energy used 300 kWhrs.  A litre of diesel will produce 9.8 kWhr of energy so the train will use 300/9.8 litres of fuel if 100% efficient so it will consume 300/9.8*100/40 or 76 litres of fuel-oil which at 40p per litre is £31..  Purchase from the grid of 300 kWhr at  10p per unit on average will cost the same




    So, where in the world is electrification of long distance railways economically viable?


    Intercity trains typically have a lifespan of between 30 and 50 years. The Intercity 125 has just recently been retired from the Great Western line after thundering along it tirelessly for over 40 years. 

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48327739


    Do you have any evidence that in 30 to 50 years time the cost of powering a train with diesel will be less than powering an equivalent sized train with electricty, or even that the price of diesel will rise in-line with or less than the rate of inflation?


    Intercity trains are not like cars which tend to be changed by their owner every few years and (in Britain) become a ton of scrap metal on wheels after 10 years. They are a medium to long term capital investment.
Reply
  • 0

    CliveS:

    Yes, if you can generate electricity by solar, wind, tidal or hydro at a cheaper price per unit, than burning hydrocarbon fuel then it could be worth electrifying a railway line. But electrification of cross country in UK or interstate is a waste of money and materials and is just bad economics. 

    See website  https://nottenergy.com/our-services/resources/energy-cost-comparison/  

    A 600 kW diesel electric train may only be 40% efficient but that is the same price energy wise than purchasing from the grid and you save all the electric infrastructure costs.


    EXAMPLE  run a train from London to Birmingham for one hour at 90 miles per hour with engine running on average 50% throttle. Total energy used 300 kWhrs.  A litre of diesel will produce 9.8 kWhr of energy so the train will use 300/9.8 litres of fuel if 100% efficient so it will consume 300/9.8*100/40 or 76 litres of fuel-oil which at 40p per litre is £31..  Purchase from the grid of 300 kWhr at  10p per unit on average will cost the same




    So, where in the world is electrification of long distance railways economically viable?


    Intercity trains typically have a lifespan of between 30 and 50 years. The Intercity 125 has just recently been retired from the Great Western line after thundering along it tirelessly for over 40 years. 

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48327739


    Do you have any evidence that in 30 to 50 years time the cost of powering a train with diesel will be less than powering an equivalent sized train with electricty, or even that the price of diesel will rise in-line with or less than the rate of inflation?


    Intercity trains are not like cars which tend to be changed by their owner every few years and (in Britain) become a ton of scrap metal on wheels after 10 years. They are a medium to long term capital investment.
Children
No Data

Community Rules & Guidelines