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HS2 railway

CliveS
We would all agree that an express link fro London to Birmingham and Manchester would be of great benefit BUT do we have to electrify the entire length of track or just the parts inside city boundaries. 

We can half the construction/infrastructure cost if we use diesel electric trains cross country and convert to electric only inside the city. 

This is environmentally friendly as power stations are only 60% efficient at best and mostly use gas at normal/peak times anyway; isn't it ??
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    Arran 

    Special price deals may be negotiated but long term the cost of electrical energy and gas/kerosene are all tied together.  If oil and gas price increase 50% then electricity will increase 50% because most of our power stations use oil or gas as their primary fuel. 

    So ideally trains should be able to run on diesel in the countryside and on electricity in the cities where air pollution is a health problem.  Hybrid trains should be recommended as the best way forward in my view and forget about electrifying intercity lines.  CliveS
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    CliveS:

    Arran 

    Special price deals may be negotiated but long term the cost of electrical energy and gas/kerosene are all tied together.  If oil and gas price increase 50% then electricity will increase 50% because most of our power stations use oil or gas as their primary fuel. 




    Oil fired power stations are are thing of the past in Britain. There are just a small handful here and there such as one in the Shetland Islands and another in Northern Ireland. The big ones have all gone and they were never even prominent to start with - like large coal or nuclear power stations were.


    The long term cost of electrical energy will depend on how the electricity is produced in the future.


    I'm no expert on railway engineering or power generation, but somehow I don't really think you understand what you are talking about.



     

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    Swiss Railways were initially powered with hydro electricity. Later some power was taken from the nuclear stations on the normal grid (which required conversion from 50 to 16 2/3 Hz). Some diesels exist for shunting and maintenance work. In this case there is no comparison with diesel.

    As an aside during WW2 when oil and coal supplies were very limited a few steam locomotives were converted to electric heating for shunting purposes.
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    Note that systems with DC traction supply use regenerative braking, and there is no equivalent of that for a diesel  system (or a steam one for that matter). With modern inverters that recovered DC can be returned to the grid. In terms of energy use, and brake wear, long term electric trains win hands down, more so where it is hilly or lots of stop and start. The payback time is longer, as the infrastructure effort of HV lines and substations is greater.

    Once we stop using fossil fuel for anything but emergency electricity, (and here in the UK already, on a good day up to 20% is wind,  only about 5% today though )  then we are on to a multiple winner.


    I am not sure if you have seen many of  these (portable solar augmented gensets) at the roadside round your way just yet, but even for things like roadworks and building sites, it is very clear that the days of the conventional diesel genset are numbered, and the pressure is to lower consumption as much as possible.
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    Yes. Mike

    The solar panel/battery inverter and even without the genset are of good design as they can build two and slide into a normal container.  These units would be ideal for African countries as they could supply little villages that are remote from the grid, with enough power to supply lights, internet and several community fridges as well.

    If we use hybrid diesel electric engines; then each end is electrified anyway allowing quick start up and regenerative braking at the far end city. A win win situation.   

    If we ever get to a time when the price of electricity per kWhr is less than the price of a quarter of a litre of diesel then we should review the situation.
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    CliveS:

    If we ever get to a time when the price of electricity per kWhr is less than the price of a quarter of a litre of diesel then we should review the situation.  




    Could you show me a reliable source that confirms your argument that the average cost per mile of running a diesel train is lower than that of an electric train of approximately the same size in the UK.


    Are you involved in railway engineering at all?

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    I think that there are too many variables to give a definative answer. The electrification infrastructure has a high capital cost and a high maintenance cost. A disel locomotive has higher maintenance cost than an electric one. The maximum power per unit is generally limitted by the space for engine cooling radiators to around 4000kW requiring double heading for heavy loads/hilly routes.

    If the line is lightly used the costs of electrification are probably not offset by savings on operating costs and diesel will supply lower cost per mile. On a heavily used route the opposite will apply and electric traction will be cheaper. There is a lot more involved than just the cost of the energy. Long tunnels also favor electric traction.


    Best regards


    Roger
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    You could of course use Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Electrification without the wires ?

    https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/rmv-orders-27-hydrogen-trains-from-alstom/


    Best regards


    Roger
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    The section of line between Barnt Green and Bromsgrove has recently been electrified. So has the Chase Line between Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley.
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    and Bromsgrove station has been rebuilt with a longer platform, but have the trains increased in length yet with more carriage added to them?


    Andy

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