Hello Helios,
Regarding water vapour leaving the exhaust and freezing on the road, I am with Simon Barker on this one. Toyota’s Mirai does feature a “H2O” button for the concerned driver. This enables a human to override the automated control system and choose when to dump the reaction water. In the videos it does look a bit of a silly gimmick to me, because personally and I can’t really take a world in which I need to think about taking my vehicle somewhere appropriate to ‘relieve’ itself seriously.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Good practice to question the conditions and definition of the 83% figure for efficiency. It's common to quote an ‘efficiency’ figure that makes the thing you are selling look better than competitors, after all. It's important for us all to have a good definition of what we want out of a system to be able to evaluate different technologies fairly.
My source for this figure comes from a textbook chapter written by Professor Wolf Vielstich, a well-known German electrochemist who was awarded the Faraday medal by the Royal Society of Chemistry in 1998. The RSC acknowledging his contributions to Electrochemistry is good enough for me to believe he knows what he is talking about.
The conditions for the 83% figure are:
- the reactant gases are at unit pressure
- the gases are at a constant temperature of 25 degrees centigrade
- that the product water is entirely liquid (due to the constant temperature being 25 centigrade).
If the reaction definition changes to say that the product water formed is entirely gaseous, this theoretical efficiency goes up, because there is no ‘work’ done to carry out the phase change. At 298 Kelvin, we get 94%, though (at least for low temperature fuel cells) the product is a mixture of the two phases and the humidity is something we have to control quite well for other reasons to do with the membranes.
Curiously, this measure says that some electrochemical reactions give ‘efficiencies’ greater than 100%. Reacting formic acid with oxygen (HCOOH + 1/2 O2 —> CO2 + H2O) gives a theoretical efficiency of 105.6%. This tells us that at these conditions, the environment must do work to enable the reaction, rather than the reaction doing work to heat up the environment. In practice, we always need to be careful to understand what else has to be done to make the reaction work - beware claims of the perpetual motion machine!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This also partly explains why fuel cells, particularly high temperature types (the leading technology here presently being Solid Oxide Fuel Cells SOFC) are very keen on finding uses for their waste heat. If the waste heat is something you really want, then we start seeing ‘efficiencies’ up near 100% quoted for real practical systems, since then there is almost nothing ‘unwanted’ coming out of the fuel cell. Whether this heating power is always actually wanted though, is something which must be considered on a case-by-case basis:
- The exhaust from a low temperature PEM fuel cell (approx. 60 degrees centigrade) is a good temperature for heating up the passenger area of a vehicle in the winter, but what do we do in the summer?
- Similarly for high-temperature fuel cells, could they be linked to industrial processes which want 600+ centigrade waste heat?
- It seems unlikely that one single technology choice will universally supersede all others.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Working pressures for hydrogen in fuel cells are on the order of a couple of bar at most (again at least for low temperature fuel cells), and much less than any kind of compressed storage which I am aware of. In this area I wonder if a technology platform like the one being developed in the UK with the support of the UK government for liquid air storage could be used to recover some of the energy when decompressing the hydrogen for use. Another interesting development is the use of membrane technologies to compress hydrogen electrochemically rather than mechanically, which offers benefits like no moving parts and the ability to run the whole process on renewable energy (if we have enough to spare).
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Longevity is a problem for any new technology, especially in energy technologies. In the low-temperature world, corrosion is a limiting factor on lifespan for technologies using metallic bipolar plates in particular. Graphite based plates show superior long-term performance, but at the cost of more expensive manufacturing and thicker cells, meaning a less power dense fuel cell stack (important in some applications).
As with everything there is a tradeoff, and plenty of work has been done and is being done to improve the long term performance of all hydrogen technologies. The typical use case for a passenger car is much less taxing than any other kind of vehicle (5000 to 6000 operating hours over the product’s life time), something which is achievable already. For almost any other application, we’re talking at least double this before we can be serious about being a long-term replacement, but if you look closely there are companies out there offering fuel cells with 20,000 operating hour expected lifespans already.
High temperature fuel cells are can be made of tougher materials and don’t need polymer membranes, but heat cycling these units featuring metals and ceramics leads to thermal expansion problems which can cause the cell stack to become leaky and fatigue joints in the cell. Leaky hydrogen boxes aren’t anyone’s friend, but lots of clever design has been done here as well to overcome this issue, and there are plenty of examples of these in use and for sale around the world.___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
If by 'peak energy system' you mean using fuel cells to replace the gas / diesel peaker plants currently used to shave off peak demand at short notice, then we're getting into the realms of frequency support and grid balancing. A combination of batteries and hydrogen energy storage could be used to replace these fossil generators, which are far more expensive and inefficient than a large CCG plant and only work out because frequency support and quickly dispatchable power is so valuable. Hydrogen is in part so interesting because HES (hydrogen energy storage) could fit into the grid both as baseload and as dispatchable peaker plant. Technically, hydrogen fits very well with a future energy grid.
Compelling renewable generation and associated supporting (hydrogen) technologies fit the conventional centralised generation model doesn’t make the best use of what they can offer. Whether the world is too invested both economically and socially to support a change to the central generation model is something that is debated at great length. In the mean time developers of renewable generation and hydrogen technologies are working hard on making the alternative path as attractive as possible, whether we are allowed to factor in the benefits to our planet from reducing our impact on it or not.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks for humouring me and for your interest in hydrogen and fuel cells!
Cheers,
Joe
Hello Helios,
Regarding water vapour leaving the exhaust and freezing on the road, I am with Simon Barker on this one. Toyota’s Mirai does feature a “H2O” button for the concerned driver. This enables a human to override the automated control system and choose when to dump the reaction water. In the videos it does look a bit of a silly gimmick to me, because personally and I can’t really take a world in which I need to think about taking my vehicle somewhere appropriate to ‘relieve’ itself seriously.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Good practice to question the conditions and definition of the 83% figure for efficiency. It's common to quote an ‘efficiency’ figure that makes the thing you are selling look better than competitors, after all. It's important for us all to have a good definition of what we want out of a system to be able to evaluate different technologies fairly.
My source for this figure comes from a textbook chapter written by Professor Wolf Vielstich, a well-known German electrochemist who was awarded the Faraday medal by the Royal Society of Chemistry in 1998. The RSC acknowledging his contributions to Electrochemistry is good enough for me to believe he knows what he is talking about.
The conditions for the 83% figure are:
- the reactant gases are at unit pressure
- the gases are at a constant temperature of 25 degrees centigrade
- that the product water is entirely liquid (due to the constant temperature being 25 centigrade).
If the reaction definition changes to say that the product water formed is entirely gaseous, this theoretical efficiency goes up, because there is no ‘work’ done to carry out the phase change. At 298 Kelvin, we get 94%, though (at least for low temperature fuel cells) the product is a mixture of the two phases and the humidity is something we have to control quite well for other reasons to do with the membranes.
Curiously, this measure says that some electrochemical reactions give ‘efficiencies’ greater than 100%. Reacting formic acid with oxygen (HCOOH + 1/2 O2 —> CO2 + H2O) gives a theoretical efficiency of 105.6%. This tells us that at these conditions, the environment must do work to enable the reaction, rather than the reaction doing work to heat up the environment. In practice, we always need to be careful to understand what else has to be done to make the reaction work - beware claims of the perpetual motion machine!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This also partly explains why fuel cells, particularly high temperature types (the leading technology here presently being Solid Oxide Fuel Cells SOFC) are very keen on finding uses for their waste heat. If the waste heat is something you really want, then we start seeing ‘efficiencies’ up near 100% quoted for real practical systems, since then there is almost nothing ‘unwanted’ coming out of the fuel cell. Whether this heating power is always actually wanted though, is something which must be considered on a case-by-case basis:
- The exhaust from a low temperature PEM fuel cell (approx. 60 degrees centigrade) is a good temperature for heating up the passenger area of a vehicle in the winter, but what do we do in the summer?
- Similarly for high-temperature fuel cells, could they be linked to industrial processes which want 600+ centigrade waste heat?
- It seems unlikely that one single technology choice will universally supersede all others.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Working pressures for hydrogen in fuel cells are on the order of a couple of bar at most (again at least for low temperature fuel cells), and much less than any kind of compressed storage which I am aware of. In this area I wonder if a technology platform like the one being developed in the UK with the support of the UK government for liquid air storage could be used to recover some of the energy when decompressing the hydrogen for use. Another interesting development is the use of membrane technologies to compress hydrogen electrochemically rather than mechanically, which offers benefits like no moving parts and the ability to run the whole process on renewable energy (if we have enough to spare).
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Longevity is a problem for any new technology, especially in energy technologies. In the low-temperature world, corrosion is a limiting factor on lifespan for technologies using metallic bipolar plates in particular. Graphite based plates show superior long-term performance, but at the cost of more expensive manufacturing and thicker cells, meaning a less power dense fuel cell stack (important in some applications).
As with everything there is a tradeoff, and plenty of work has been done and is being done to improve the long term performance of all hydrogen technologies. The typical use case for a passenger car is much less taxing than any other kind of vehicle (5000 to 6000 operating hours over the product’s life time), something which is achievable already. For almost any other application, we’re talking at least double this before we can be serious about being a long-term replacement, but if you look closely there are companies out there offering fuel cells with 20,000 operating hour expected lifespans already.
High temperature fuel cells are can be made of tougher materials and don’t need polymer membranes, but heat cycling these units featuring metals and ceramics leads to thermal expansion problems which can cause the cell stack to become leaky and fatigue joints in the cell. Leaky hydrogen boxes aren’t anyone’s friend, but lots of clever design has been done here as well to overcome this issue, and there are plenty of examples of these in use and for sale around the world.___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
If by 'peak energy system' you mean using fuel cells to replace the gas / diesel peaker plants currently used to shave off peak demand at short notice, then we're getting into the realms of frequency support and grid balancing. A combination of batteries and hydrogen energy storage could be used to replace these fossil generators, which are far more expensive and inefficient than a large CCG plant and only work out because frequency support and quickly dispatchable power is so valuable. Hydrogen is in part so interesting because HES (hydrogen energy storage) could fit into the grid both as baseload and as dispatchable peaker plant. Technically, hydrogen fits very well with a future energy grid.
Compelling renewable generation and associated supporting (hydrogen) technologies fit the conventional centralised generation model doesn’t make the best use of what they can offer. Whether the world is too invested both economically and socially to support a change to the central generation model is something that is debated at great length. In the mean time developers of renewable generation and hydrogen technologies are working hard on making the alternative path as attractive as possible, whether we are allowed to factor in the benefits to our planet from reducing our impact on it or not.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks for humouring me and for your interest in hydrogen and fuel cells!
Cheers,
Joe
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