This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

Some things for windy miller to consider

The wind power generation market is certainly technically advancing (I laughed too when one caught fire because it was err too windy) and attracting more finance , some requiring no gov money at all , we now have the high torque gearboxes and some talk that the current 14MW current upper limit design will be beaten and Halide is gaining orders , GE also launching Cypress this week which at 6MW is the largest on shore turbine output. A different plastics blend is being developed for the turbine blades , to make them recyclable and the sea bed anchor systems (seem) to be well enough engineered for plenty of off shore wind to be developed , deep sea offshore wind is starting to be talked about and this is more technically difficult as floating wind turbine platforms are being thought about , which given the wave hieghts coupled with very tall turbines will have engineers and perhaps contactors in very dificult position. 


However using wind power is a different thing altogether , they generate in DC , and in wiring supplies each turbine is generating non synchronous with the other , so electrical engineers have to perform what is termed "clean up" where the DC is put into a form for storage and/or for inversion to AC systems and transformation .


However whilst the goverment seems convinced that whole areas can and will be powered by wind generated electricty , my old friend from childrens stories "windy miller" perhaps would state the obvious , what happens when it isnt windy ??? , and it is rather important that goverment does think about this or our energy systems will end up in a bit of a mess. At the moment electricty is having a good public image , in that coal has just about been eliminated from the UK generation system , at certain times wind has been providing 25% of the uk demand , however at other times wind has been providing very little and we see gas electrical generation systems being turned on and the large interconnectors being used where electricty is sent and recieved via undersea cables , and so the thinking has been up till now that wind acts as a sort of rnewable friend to not use coal, gas and biomass electricty generation systems.Wind power is expected to fall in cost per mw , but of course this realy doesnt turn up on users bills because in pretty much all scenarios you have to have Gas, coal Biomass and nuclear either in base load or to be ready for those days when you have no wind but peak demands , which perhaps isnt really the best way of doing things .


Like all energy systems , balancing demand with supply is perhaps the best start point ,its really easy too when you have say just 50 houses using 8000kwh each , you just need to be sure what the peak demand is and then you can size your electrical or non electrical store , and so long as your wind turbine can fill that store (over low and high wind supplies) , you can have a clean nergy system , so no problem for the 50 house sceanrios as regards electricty .


However the government is talking about 40000MW (peak output) as wind supplies and infering that this will revolutionise the UKs electricty grid supplies ,which i have a great deal of caution about , In 2018 (I think) the uk had 10 consecuative days with out any wind generating any electricty at all , the grid started wanting is reserve systems in use (large private commercial generators in factories ), we got close to not having enough baseload or gas electrical generation plants and I am not sure we have learnt anyhting from this problem , 10 consecuative days without wind is not a particulary rare event either , but it perhaps appears as some really low wind days ,combined with no wind at all days , non the less a very problematic scenario , as it will no dawn on people that we will need storage of at least 10 days , to plan for the possibility of 10 days without wind , which will be big and costly.


Already we see some rushing to lithium battery storage systems , noting we cannot recycle these battieres much beyond 40% at the moment (although better recycling 70% is being developed ) , the flow battery is probabely best suited for large electricty storage , as it has such deep cycle abilities and long life with no degradation on charge holding (which lithium systems do around 1% charge loss per year after 3yrs i think) , so whilst goverment headlines on wind power are interesting ,it would be a shame if they screw up on the energy storage bit, even so some one has to explain what is the grid going to do to meet demands when its low or no wind for 10 or more consecuative days , i would think they also have to explain what a 10 day battery for a major city would look like, or how three phase (in phase) is to be provided from a battery ???

  • Ultimately it seems likely we will use hydrogen production for storage instead of batteries. Yes, we are not there yet but it is not a huge technology leap to get there.

    it is less efficient than lithium but far more sustainable
  • Hi Brian 

    I am mulling over the battery situation as its pretty clear that Hydrogen as a Molecular battery is a serious contender , I just cant get on with money being blown in grid infrastructure thats half baked , I get that battery storage making use of spent car batteries is , sort of useful , but installing battery systems that only hold 80% and declining of their charge , looks poor engineering thought to me , let alone that these early battery systems are not recyclable. Its just not good enough that BEIS and Ofgem are approving spending on projects that we know will give further problems down the time line , just read today that large flywheels to enable Hz synchronisation are to be deployed , because batteries do generate frequency , and that er "steam turbines" are to be re tasked in driving the condenser units , i mean really doesnt it just end up with further problems. 

    I was all for batteries , until i relaised they werent the sort of batteries that at grid scale we should be thinking about , and they dont recycle ,it now looks like that large batteries that dont have frequency systems will take efficiency down further , and this is particulary sensative for the problems where griids are mostly utilising wind power . We will need more DC power in the future , and we know UHVDC grids can do some very different things in terms of efficiency (The MW scale inverter has already been achieved)  and we can convert to 50hz AC 230V , from transmission supply at DC or UHVDC, the efficiency for the Electric car of charging from a DC supply is equally undenable as the cars will us DC in large quantities nationally , and given the H2 requirements for industry/chemicals (also utilising DC) , the engineers will be in alot of problems explaining why we built an energy system that could fail quite badly in the future , for example if its not windy for 10 days .