Before about 1690. William of Orange was the monarch who oversaw the first sale of UK govt debt, and the organization that managed it later became called the Bank of England. So only about 320 years - diddly squat in terms of the  history of the UK - but then I live in a market town with an abbey that  has parts that date back to 900 and something.

Mike

There is no law in economics that states old jobs eliminated through technology have to be replaced by new jobs in a 1:1 ratio. The new jobs could be in a completely different city, or even country for that matter.

You are right in that new jobs might require a higher level or completely different type of skill, but alternatively, they could end up becoming less skilled with lower pay and poorer working conditions.

Something I have noticed is the marked rise in the number of fast food outlets in towns and cities since 2000ish. Not just big national chains but independent shops. I can't help wondering if the rise isn't just because of consumer demand but is also a result of a lack of local job opportunities due to automation and the closure of industries.

I'm not sure how this lifelong learning will turn out in practice unless you happen to be part of the fraternity who gets their education off YouTube videos.

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of 'refresher' courses for middle aged engineers to learn about modern technologies that were not significant (or even existed) at the time they studied for an engineering degree. I even had a carpenter with an engineering degree ask me if any additional courses existed for people past the age of 30. He has since given up completely and will just stick with building work for as long as his body can take it.

engx.theiet.org/.../78601

I'm not sure if there has been much research into casual education and it's effect on the economy and employment. Education still officially means formal education taught in a classroom leading to a recognised qualification.

One could argue that technology now has the potential to make teachers redundant as many things can be learned online. What is inhibitive is the position that education in Britain is more about qualifications than the acquisition of useful knowledge and skills.

What hasn't been mentioned is the loss of income tax and national insurance as a result of replacing workers with machines.

Automation is legitimate tax evasion!

Also, if salaries for new jobs are, on average, less than those for the old jobs eliminated due to technology then there's an additional loss of tax revenue. Especially if jobs become casualised and cash in hand.

There have been many articles written about a robot tax, but nobody knows how to implement it in practice. Take into account that automation isn't just a machine which moves things in a factory. It can even be a mobile phone app. It's now possible to cash a cheque by taking a photo of it. Next year more local bank branches will close down in Britain.

One solution could be changing the tax system away from taxing labour towards taxing corporate profits, but economists are not enthusiastic about this idea because companies can relocate their head offices to lower tax regimes.

I'm not sure if the IET has given any consideration to this economic phenomenon.

I had a good think about this...

It might actually be possible for some (not all) manufacturing companies to operate a 4 day week and offer the same pay as a 5 day week through automation.

Not all that many people in Britain work in manufacturing any more. It's reached a point where working in a factory is seen as a bit quaint, even in the classic manufacturing heartlands.

I have doubts whether the service sector and the public sector can operate a 4 day week for workers with the same pay as a 5 day week. These are characterised by low productivity, and in many cases a reluctance to adopt automation for a variety of reasons ranging from a near unlimited supply of immigrant workers to trade unions.

What is inhibitive is the position that education in Britain is more about qualifications than the acquisition of useful knowledge and skills.

But much less so than on the continent where you have to have the right bits of paper to even be able to discuss something. Germany is particularly like that - CV missing the magic spell,  no job.. Here we are more accepting of folk rocking up who are good at the task even if their historical  paperwork is a bit odd.

I do agree that is a trap to avoid - paying membership to some institution and holding a set of tickets gained 20 years ago is not really any guarantee of current competences.

Mike.

That is a fair point you make as there are plenty of engineers in Britain who don't hold a degree in anything.

However, my experience of things is that education after Y9 - or even primary school - is now more focused on qualifications rather than the acquisition of knowledge and skills. The only exception are vocational and training courses.

This is why I'm wondering if lifelong education, more often than not, is a case of barking up the wrong tree, and instead what is really needed are more training courses for postgraduates and middle aged people. 

Andy Millar said:

As she's always said, there are lots of jobs that need to be done, so why are people having to work at jobs that don't really need to be done. A Nobel Prize in Economics for whoever can solve that one.

I don't think you need a Nobel Prize to solve this one.

It's down to money...

The difference between work and jobs is that jobs are paid whereas work is not necessarily paid. A person offering a job has money to pay the worker. If a person wants work to be done but doesn't have the means to pay a worker, then they are not offering a job.

thanks  Andy Millar Arran Cameron Chris Pearson  Jon Steward mapj1 Simon Barker  for taking time to share your thoughts regarding employment, education and even state revenue around Automation and robotics.

Some references that I thought were good on the future of education and macroeconomics were from Jeremy Rifkin.

I found some good references regarding employment from Eric Brynjolfsson, His book "The second machine age" was particularly good.

I still think the best apps for Robotics and Automation are the 3D's, those which are; dull, dark or dangerous.

I think as Engineers we do have a responsibility to society to ensure what we create is of benefit.

I found good guidance in the IET Strategy 2030 and the Engineers without borders.

The question is ... Should we take an  engineering or Hipocractic oath?

#Robotics

Alan Rossney said:

Should we take a for of engineering or Hipocractic oath?

Tricky for those working in some areas of defence where the end product is designed to cause destruction,  I think ;-)   Less flippantly, even though I do not do that, certainly for me some of that exampler would be unacceptable.

'Engineering' is too broad a catch-all to be considered a single discipline, and the rules of the game are far from universal between different areas..

Mike