Yes ELVs <50Vdc.  IMHO its sheer madness to be involved with MV dc Panel strings - way too dangerous  IMHO in a domestic environment, and we dont have the skilled tradesmen to recognise this type of micro grid nor is there a recognised route to upgrade to this unfamiliar but hazardous system.  Way too many unschooled wannabees playing with fireworks.  It is utter negligence by our Political leaders to allow this to continue.  They only woke up to the hazards of amateur plumbers who didnt understand flammable atmospheres till a few houses were blown up flattened.  Then British gas had to step in a institute proper training courses with local tech colleges.  Where do our Electricians get proper upgrades?  A one man jobber cant afford an apprentice (with all the paperwork and oversight involved). He will only have a family member or friend involved.

gkenyon said:

Anything more than a few (<5) amperes at 12 V or more is enough to draw an arc, and 1-2 amperes is enough to sustain it

More homework needed here old chap. FYI you cant sustain an arc flash at 12 V. You will get a spark but you cant develop a sustained arc (at STP) below a certain voltage.  This is ca 20Vdc.  A welder will tell you that you can only weld with 2 car batteries 24Vdc or more  YT vids are there.

and anyone who has tried it will tell you that 3 car batteries strike up far better but to go easy anyway, as it does them no good at all. A few minutes non stop welding can heat the battery acid to a temperature that does irreversible damage. On the very rare occasion it is needed, I prefer to see the batteries put in a ditch or on the other side of something solid like  a vehicle, so if one does boil and vent, the scope for injury is limited, and not all on-line videos show sensible behaviour - but that is not just about welding.
It is quite a good thing to know how to do however.

Mike.

However far more important is how to relate available energy, or rather rate of delivery, into a safe arc radius to avoid instant sun-tan or worse being basted with molten metal, and then to either limit access for body parts, or the energy available during fault, so that the two never coincide. By the time you are talking about needing buckets of sand, if you are in earnest, you are already on the wrong side of a how to design things safely.

M.

(Who is very much not afraid of 3 phases either 400 or 690, when properly fused and in suitable containment, or indeed higher voltages too, but with rather more caveats. )

mapj1 said:

when properly fused and in suitable containment, or indeed higher voltages too, but with rather more caveats. )

Anyone understand this?

Gone OT here

I wasnt discussing using car batteries for regular welding, simply giving an example to show that you need a minimum voltage to sustain a dc arc, 12Vdc is not enough, 24Vdc will do it.

The real danger to health from an arc blast is the molten droplets of copper becoming instantly vapourised and expanding with explosive force ca 70,000 times expansion.  You dont want that in your face, nor the huge blast of UV and eye damage.  Its why copper fuse wire is encased in a ceramic tube and HRC fuses have sand added as well to quench the arc.  Look up YT and see some examples of fuse rupturing fault currents.

Fuses are given  an AIC or Amperage Interrupt Capability is the maximum fault current that the protective device is able to clear safely without causing damage to equipment or personnel or welding closed.

This can be 5-20kA 20,000 Amps! typically (or much larger for HV).  Plenty of room to study here to really understand the risks as I have this past year and is the reason for my OP.  Electricians are not traditionally trained in this specialised area of LV dc high current systems. 

Even something as elementary as making ring terminal bolted joints can go badly wrong (as per busbars in battery banks).  If you use a Flir IR camera it will be surprising to see where significant hotspots are developing within those bulky cables under full load.  Those hot spots over time can develop tiny arcs that grow seriously.  viz YT

Off gridders know about this.

Indeed - hence the point about enclosure/ containment. There is a tendency among those who have not seen it for real to think that ELV quite is safe to have exposed terminals - and it may well be safe from a shock perspective, and in more traditional cases where the fault current is limited such as bell transformers and dry batteries.

With all but the smallest lead-acid or Lithium-ion and similar the impedance can be very low, and there is no such protection, and the effect of a spanner or strap of a wristwatch causing a fault path to the wrong place  however can be devastating, forming that accidental welder without the current control.The burns on a finger from a briefly red hot wedding ring are pretty unpalatable as well. I've not done it but I have seen the pictures.

Even in a pocket 'vape' the current in the heater coil can exceed 20A from a lithium cell that is only a few CM3 in volume . Scale  to something the volume of a small fridge and the potential energy is pretty impressive very quickly.

The headline has to be - with battery banks, shock is not the only risk, and 'just' ELV wiring needs increasing respect the more current is available .

Mike.

Well said Mike, but out governing Powers and indeed the technical training organisation and their learned bodies have largely ignored this emergent electrical area (even though the hazards are well understood for a century in such industries as electric traction, electroplating, telephone exchanges etc).  No young engineers or electricians receive any specific instruction in the nature of ELV dc distribution.  Its left to old timers like myself who came up through industry and formal education to recognise this drastic gap in training.  When I was tasked with the recruitment "milk round" , I was very disappointed at the poor quality of graduate training for Electrical Engineers who were expected to go on to become system designers.  IMHO they would need a full 5 years alongside an experienced site engineer just to get a proper grasp of the subject.  We don't have such mentors available any more and plant electricians don't have time or patience to carry students along (neither generally are electricians funded and trained to give such assistance BTW).

So that leaves the naive public at the mercy of "Chancers" and "Cowboys" I am sorry to say  (bit like the Roofer trade)

IMHO we will fall victim to Politico whims and grandstanding as has happened with " promotion of Diesel vs Petrol cars", Electric vehicles (2nd values plummeted ,  Heat pumps, HS2 rail (never once was the concept of modern VIP style coaches with exclusive use of the motorway outer lane considered), Solar farms occupying arable farmland),  pursuit of Nuclear power stations 20years to build 10x original budget using very old outdated technology still producing environmental nightmare waste (see https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/novel-nuclear/micro-reactor.aspx

but what do  kno

Surely this doesnt apply to ELV <50V systems? 

It's a general BS 7671 requirement, so I believe it does. I suspect the thinking behind the regulation is to control the risk of overheating and/or fire from an overheating joint (as ever, compared with an unbroken conductor, joints are a source of weakness) and as that's related to current rather than voltage it doesn't seem unreasonable that it does apply to ELV systems as well (where if anything currents tend to be much larger). Individual product standards may well allow such methods, but usually only in specific circumstances where mitigating factors usually apply.

No young engineers or electricians receive any specific instruction in the nature of ELV dc distribution.

Someone must be getting some training - since ELV distribution has been used not only in the areas you mention but in some IT data centres too - where 48V DC distribution is sometimes used. 12V in caravans too (again with the potential for kA fault currents). I'd agree it's not trickled down to your typical domestic installer - but that's because there's little need for it at the moment - almost all commercial systems convert back to 230V a.c. and use the building's existing a.c. distribution system.

   -  Andy.

I have got to wonder what your agenda is here.  Are you seriously saying that it requires years of training to wire a few solar panels in series without electrocuting yourself or burning the house down?

Solar power is now mainstream.  Houses all over the country are covered in solar panels. They work, and it's very rare that anything bad happens.

I get the impression that you're trying to impose rules to make all larger-scale solar installations so impractical that nobody wants to install them.  Then having done that, you can clain that they were just a green fad.

Agenda!!!!!!!!!!!!  I am crying out for amateurs to get themselves properly educated instead of the painful "suck it and see" attempts shown on youtube by technically illiterate bluffers pumping out dangerous practices for the credulous public to play with.  Its as bad as showing kids how to make fireworks.   Perhaps you havent browsed enough of these crass vids to see how misleading and dangerous they are.

Maybe just sit back and let the inevitable tragic accidents occur 

Rob Tes said:

More homework needed here old chap. FYI you cant sustain an arc flash at 12 V.

Indeed ... although I think we know enough already. It's possible to cause an arc at 12 V DC (not AC) from two conductors in direct contact (we know this from car batteries) ... although it does "blow itself out" as the gap increases as the conductors melt.

Things can get interesting, though, with "constant current source" behaviour of solar panels and power converters.

We are talking "arc" and not "arc flash" here, and I would agree 100 % that we don't start to get too many problems with arc flash at 12 V DC, perhaps up to 24 V DC.

Rob Tes said:

More homework needed here old chap. FYI you cant sustain an arc flash at 12 V.

Indeed ... although I think we know enough already. It's possible to cause an arc at 12 V DC (not AC) from two conductors in direct contact (we know this from car batteries) ... although it does "blow itself out" as the gap increases as the conductors melt.

Things can get interesting, though, with "constant current source" behaviour of solar panels and power converters.

We are talking "arc" and not "arc flash" here, and I would agree 100 % that we don't start to get too many problems with arc flash at 12 V DC, perhaps up to 24 V DC.

gkenyon said:

It's possible to cause an arc at 12 V DC

WRONG more homework needed GK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FXRuT6TU2U

you cannot draw an arc flash at 12 Vdc - nor at 15Vdc from a battery charger - its the Physics of the subject (very esoteric)

Here is an example with 2 batteries 24Vdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM

An arc flash can be sustained (out in the bush people have used coat hangers as welding rods)

Note the size of the Arc Flash and imagine that sustained in your faulty breaker or fuse holder

What will you do next ?

Are emergency procedures stuck to the wall for Joe Public and his Family?

Rob Tes said:

WRONG more homework needed GK

I think we are at odds only in terminology, and I have tried to explain that in a previous post. To sustain the arc is difficult with 12 V due to the very short distance necessary. Easier with carbon or carbonised metal ... I never said you can weld with 12 V using arc welding sticks ... but arcs can be drawn for short periods with 12 V if you know how

youtu.be/Frk3M38mfl4

Perhaps rudeness is not necessary.

Rob Tes said:

you cannot draw an arc flash at 12 Vdc - nor at 15Vdc from a battery charger - its the Physics of the subject (very esoteric)

Yes, arc flash energy at 12 V may well be low, but an "arc" is not "arc flash" - they are two different things.

An arc can lead to arc flash (or not).

Your reply and vid are out of context with my assertion  ie you are referring to a carbon arc system.  My topic concerns fault currents in wiring/ protective devices etc using metal interfaces.  I am frustrated at deliberate attempts to dilute the issue of dc power system safety.  There is so much absurdly naive rubbish promoted on YT and giving untutored  Joe Public the idea of playing around with setting up his own solar system inside his house.   

There are numerous vids with ca 100,000 followers showing how to meddle with Lion 18650 cells and rather trivialising the safety issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYBnEGYWgz4

How many  people just throw lion cylindrical cells in a drawer together (just like you might with spare zinc carbon cells)

Have you seen vids of refuse lorries discharging their loads in the street because a lithium battery started a fire and produced smoke.

This is a regular occurrence in recycling centers

Would you let your kids experiment with lithium batteries?

When I am developing a project using Lions on my bench, I have the following kit to hand

A large steel cooking pot with lid containing a couple inches of sand at my feet

Wire/cable cutters to hand

Leather gloves and large tongs

Wear goggles over 12Vdc

Keep a plan water mister to hand to quench arc flash

Keep room exit clear in case of catastrophic event (room rapidly fills with highly toxic HF smoke)

How many of you understand the need for these precautions indoors?

Rob Tes said:

Your reply and vid are out of context with my assertion  ie you are referring to a carbon arc system. 

I didn't specify that, and nor did you.

Once carbonisation takes place on the surface of other conductors, though, more prolong "sparking" and quasi-arcs can occur, but still perhaps not "arc flash" - I wouldn't, however, like to say it was never possible under any circumstances with 12 V DC systems.

Rob Tes said:

There are numerous vids with ca 100,000 followers showing how to meddle with Lion 18650 cells and rather trivialising the safety issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYBnEGYWgz4

How many  people just throw lion cylindrical cells in a drawer together (just like you might with spare zinc carbon cells)

I fully support you in this, and the other things you have said ... except perhaps I would recommend wearing eye protection even at 12 V DC.

In real installations, I have seen welded and vaporized components resulting from short-circuit faults in 12 V DC and 24 V DC systems (without carbon rods ) and for that reason, I would make the recommendation for at least some eye protection, especially where the prospective fault current is going to be more than a (very) few amperes..