A gravity turbine idea

Hi all,

Forgive me for such a long first post – I wanted to give some background to the situation and felt that I needed to try to explain my idea as fully as possible if I were going to ask anyone to comment on it; I do not know if there is any value in what I propose but I am at a loss as to what else to do.

In 2018 I had an idea for a new type of renewable energy turbine, and I have spent the last eight years trying to make it a reality.

At separate times I have had involvement from Professor Chris Sansom (Professor of Concentrating Solar Power (CSP) and Theme Lead, Zero Carbon at Derby University) and Professor Jo Darkwa (Professor of Energy Storage Technologies, Faculty of Engineering for the University of Nottingham). To a large degree, the issue has been the same at both institutions; namely a lack of funding. At Derby University I was fortunate that my company, Vortex Energies Ltd., was the recipient of three funded internships; but the level of funding didn’t allow for adequate modelling or sufficient practical work to be undertaken. Jo Darkwa recognises that a full feasibility study is required but has so far been unable to locate suitable funding.

It has been repeatedly suggested that I pursue investors personally; this may be an avenue for some, except that I have no experience of running a business (Vortex Energies Ltd. was only set up as part of Derby’s funding applications process). Additionally, I have suffered a couple of strokes that have left me with some physical and cognitive difficulties; even if someone were to invest in the idea, I simply couldn’t run the business side, and the technical aspects are way beyond me. I also have no connections with either engineering or physics, which would at least have offered some credibility in putting forward my idea.

To give some background to my personal situation: before my first stroke in 2016, I spent twenty years as a carer for my wife, who has ME. Prior to that (and before going to university to study archaeology) I was a Research Technician at the University of Nottingham in the Laboratory of Biophysics and Surface Analysis, Pharmaceutical Sciences.

Having spent the last eight years trying to get the idea off the ground, I promised my wife that if nothing came of the discussions with Prof Jo Darkwa, I would call it a day, considering the toll it’s taken on us both from chasing the idea for those years.

And that is where I am now. I don’t know what to do with the idea; I have no clue as to its viability and I can’t take it forward myself.

What does give me heart is that having had two professors look at the idea, they both felt it had enough merit to be worthy of further consideration. I do not know if this was a result of academic intrigue or because they felt there was a possibility of it becoming a viable business proposition? But given how limited the scope is, in academia, to pursue an ideafor its own sake these days, you might hope it would be the latter, though others will be better judges.

Feel free to contact me or ask any questions but please bear in mind that I am not an engineer or physicist, and my grasp of any technical aspect is, at best, limited.

Chris Bestwick

GRAVITY TURBINE: a system for storing and generating green electricity, as and when it is needed. A more predictable source of renewable energy, available at any time and in any weather, and with the security of mainland production of energy.

A cylindrical stator houses a rotor that gains its rotation by falling down a threaded spindle, driven by gravity. The rotor carries a payload, creating a larger mass, and thus higher potential and kinetic energy in the system.

The speed of the rotor could be governed by a regenerative braking system to maximise overall efficiency. The payload would be ejected at the bottom of the spindle to reduce the energy needed to return the rotor to the top of the spindle, where a new payload would be added. The rotor would be removed from the spindle at the bottom to be returned separately, allowing other rotors to run down the spindle unimpeded.

The payload could be anything that can quickly and easily be removed/ejected, and may be determined by local factors. Water would be an obvious choice, given its relative abundance (in the UK), its clean, non-toxic nature and possible ease of supply.

We could consider that the water supply could largely, if not entirely, be met by building a series of underground reservoirs, fed by storm water surges in rivers (given that these events are likely to become more prevalent as the climate crisis plays out), and possibly run off from towns and cities. This would have the added benefit (and possible funding sources), of reducing flooding downriver, and the water could be transported significant distances with little cost in elevation (in relation to the elevation of the turbine siting – see the aqueduct carrying water from Uzes to Nîmes, a distance of 50km with a total vertical drop of 17 meters). It would have the added benefit of not imperilling river ecosystems by taking water directly from rivers (when at their normal levels).

The rotors could be raised from the bottom of the spindle by utilising the ejected water from the rotors, which runs into a sump beneath the spindle. This then runs into a small-scale water turbine, with the generated electricity feeding into a battery-based energy storage system. Additionally, if a counterweight of containerised water is used to help raise the platform (holding the rotors), and the water is again ejected from the container at the bottom of the spindle, running into the same sump that feeds the small-scale water turbine, in tandem with the water from the rotors, it would reduce the additional required energy needed to return the rotors to the top of the spindle, if not provide it entirely.

The rotor return system could also be self-resetting, with gravity covering the hard work of raising the empty water container to the top of the spindle by allowing the rotor platform to fall to the bottom (in a controlled manner, and assuming it has a higher mass).

This could allow for a completely self-contained system of energy production, with water being the only outside requirement.

A number of rotors could operate within the same stator, their frequency determined by demand; a number of turbines could operate on a single site.

The UK has many old collieries that could provide useful sites in that they already have deep shafts as a precursor to the larger shaft needed for the turbine, whilst the prospect of employment in many of these areas would surely be welcomed. The shaft diameter could be enlarged, allowing for greater electricity generation, if the system showed adequate benefits for doing so.

A secondary shaft would be required for the rotor return system.

 

 

Parents
  • Hi Chris,

    My perspective on this comes from my past life as an R&D manager and IP manager for the UK part of a major multinational - it's the sort of role where individuals were always approaching me with concepts for new products.

    Sadly, as it sounds like you've already found, it's a vicious circle: it's pretty much impossible to get support until you have a viable prototype / model, and clear evidence of potential customers (i.e. market), and it's really hard to get that without the funding...which takes you back round the loop.

    My experience is that major investors (whether purely financial, or large companies looking to support development with a view to buying it) will, quite bluntly, expect you to re-mortgage your house to fund initial investment - their attitude will be that if you don't have enough faith in it to put your money on the line, why should they. I'm not defending that view, it just is what it is. Which is no real help whatsoever at this stage where you're being quite honest that you simply don't know.

    However, two paths I have seen work are:

    1. Find a small company in a related field who might be interested. They won't have huge resources, but if you can get the enthusiasm of the owner / CEO / MD they may be willing to put some effort in outside office hours to at least help with feasibility. Obviously you have to be careful with IP here, sadly you can't take much on trust, I'll say more about that in a moment.
    2. Find a university that's interested. Universities are always looking for good student projects. I realise from your past life that I'm probably teaching grandmother's egg-sucking here, but for undergraduate (and even PhD!) projects there doesn't have to be a commercially viable outcome, all that matters is there is something which is interesting to investigate. Which this would be. So you get a bit of free development research, they get a nice project, the only downside is that it won't happen fast and may need to be repeated a couple of times to get a useful answer - so maybe one year a student investigates the technical feasibility, the next year a different student investigates the commercial feasibility. And in my experience this is less risky from the IP point of view: Universities have to be seen to be squeaky clean there, so if it starts becoming viable their IP team will work with you on it (although you still have to remember that their IP team is still acting on behalf of the Universities interest, not yours). 

    On IP generally, people will advise you to get a patent and to use NDAs when talking to people. To be honest that's all a bit moot anyway as you've described your thoughts here, but in any case with a concept this vague it adds very little value - a big company would find a subtle way around whatever you protected, even if you had the money to take them to court (which it doesn't sound like you do). But what you don't want is to find that an apparently friendly person you discuss it with who tells you that they're not interested - and then a year later produces a product like it. It happens a lot, it's really annoying, and in my experience it's very hard to protect against. The best advice I can give there is that if you do take option 1 above do the best you can to find someone trustworthy, whilst remembering that they will be running a business.

    On the design itself, I can see the idea that for e.g. a very low water flow (too low for a turbine) it may still be able to extract useful energy, if the mechanical losses can be kept low enough that the energy output is sufficient to make the energy output cover the cost of manufacture and install. I think if it was my idea I probably would be approaching a University to see if it was an interesting project.   

    Hope that helps, although I suspect these are all thoughts you've already been through! 

    Andy

Reply
  • Hi Chris,

    My perspective on this comes from my past life as an R&D manager and IP manager for the UK part of a major multinational - it's the sort of role where individuals were always approaching me with concepts for new products.

    Sadly, as it sounds like you've already found, it's a vicious circle: it's pretty much impossible to get support until you have a viable prototype / model, and clear evidence of potential customers (i.e. market), and it's really hard to get that without the funding...which takes you back round the loop.

    My experience is that major investors (whether purely financial, or large companies looking to support development with a view to buying it) will, quite bluntly, expect you to re-mortgage your house to fund initial investment - their attitude will be that if you don't have enough faith in it to put your money on the line, why should they. I'm not defending that view, it just is what it is. Which is no real help whatsoever at this stage where you're being quite honest that you simply don't know.

    However, two paths I have seen work are:

    1. Find a small company in a related field who might be interested. They won't have huge resources, but if you can get the enthusiasm of the owner / CEO / MD they may be willing to put some effort in outside office hours to at least help with feasibility. Obviously you have to be careful with IP here, sadly you can't take much on trust, I'll say more about that in a moment.
    2. Find a university that's interested. Universities are always looking for good student projects. I realise from your past life that I'm probably teaching grandmother's egg-sucking here, but for undergraduate (and even PhD!) projects there doesn't have to be a commercially viable outcome, all that matters is there is something which is interesting to investigate. Which this would be. So you get a bit of free development research, they get a nice project, the only downside is that it won't happen fast and may need to be repeated a couple of times to get a useful answer - so maybe one year a student investigates the technical feasibility, the next year a different student investigates the commercial feasibility. And in my experience this is less risky from the IP point of view: Universities have to be seen to be squeaky clean there, so if it starts becoming viable their IP team will work with you on it (although you still have to remember that their IP team is still acting on behalf of the Universities interest, not yours). 

    On IP generally, people will advise you to get a patent and to use NDAs when talking to people. To be honest that's all a bit moot anyway as you've described your thoughts here, but in any case with a concept this vague it adds very little value - a big company would find a subtle way around whatever you protected, even if you had the money to take them to court (which it doesn't sound like you do). But what you don't want is to find that an apparently friendly person you discuss it with who tells you that they're not interested - and then a year later produces a product like it. It happens a lot, it's really annoying, and in my experience it's very hard to protect against. The best advice I can give there is that if you do take option 1 above do the best you can to find someone trustworthy, whilst remembering that they will be running a business.

    On the design itself, I can see the idea that for e.g. a very low water flow (too low for a turbine) it may still be able to extract useful energy, if the mechanical losses can be kept low enough that the energy output is sufficient to make the energy output cover the cost of manufacture and install. I think if it was my idea I probably would be approaching a University to see if it was an interesting project.   

    Hope that helps, although I suspect these are all thoughts you've already been through! 

    Andy

Children
  • Hi Andy,

    Thanks for your feedback. I did start out with universities but found that, where they were able to offer it as a student project, there wasn't the adequate funds to undertake any useful work - I was fortunate for my current to be the recipient of three internships - two undergraduate and one master's, made available by funding bodies outside of the universities. It may have been that the internships weren't well focused (I had little to do with them on a daily basis), but they all seemed too limited by the money available.

    When I worked at the university, we were fortunate that we were in a growing sector, where numerous companies were willing to offer fully funded PhDs to get the work done that they wanted. As you rightly point out, chasing funding as an individual is much more difficult, to the point that I (and my wife), have decided that I've reached an end, for my health's sake - mental and physical. What I'm doing here is very much the last throw of the dice!

  • Maybe we need an Ideas Cooperative; I'm sure there are plenty of people who come up with really good ideas but can't get any traction in getting them off the ground, and there are plenty of people who have both the expertise and experience to help them, it's just creating a body that brings them together - all of the orphan and unhomed ideas that would otherwise die, brought together with people who are able to make judgements on those ideas, and then the people who are able to help and direct them towards funding bodies or individual investors. I'm sure there are government bodies that sell to do similarly, but at arm's length, and, from my experience, you have to already have some business acumen and experience: that precludes many people!