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When is a spark an arc? OR - When is an arc a spark?

Just watched some chap on the E5 youtube channel visiting Eaton in Austria. Eaton AFDDs have been something of a subject of ridicule in youtubeland, with various respected electrical content providers demonstrating through various real-world means that they don't function. So, off this chap goes to Eaton's HQ in Vienna where they provide him with a aluminium case full of test kit, complete with the Eaton logo and fitted out with various Eaton devices inside.

One of the devices is the Eaton AFFDD which has famously failed to operate on numerous youtube video presentations.

Of course, it trips when tested with their own test kit. After all, no point in trying to sell something which isn't really needed unless you can demonstrate that it actually works, so Eaton helpfully provides the 'right' arc signature so that the device can trip on command in front of all those cynical doubters.


Apparently, all those heath robinson youtubers have been getting it wrong because they have unhelpfully been simulating real world arcing events which these devices won't actually pick up. You see, according to the 'experts' you need an arc instead of a spark to trip the device! What the hell is the difference?


Oh how I laughed! Is this how far they'll go to flog you some old tat you don't really need?

Just how many different arcs and sparks are there out there? Has anyone told David Attenborough of all these new species to explore?


Feel free to jump in!
  • Fitting a consumer unit in a new installation is one thing, trying to retrofit one into an installation that is donkeys years old could be a completely different proposition with arcing equipment that the customer thinks is in good condition.


    Andy Betteridge
  • Sparking, it`s no worse than getting done when you rewire a house and give it its first RCD protection. That old electric fire that has been working since before WW1 now trips everything out but "It was working OK before you rewired my house, therefore it is your fault!" Same with the TV that stops working soon after  too. Now you owe them a new telly
  • Not quite the same in terms of upfront costs though - you need 1 x AFDD PER CCT!

    One upfront RCD was all that was fitted when they first came in, not a whole board full.

    John Ward reckons a Wylex board with the full monty comes in at around £2K just for the CU alone!

    Add another couple for the rest of the rewire and you can see why folks will run a mile - it practically doubles the cost.


    19:51 in for Wylex.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIkqbUUEQw8

  • More here - well worth 49 minutes of your time to watch.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpxXrAnzp2E
  • Reference to pre existing faults,we now have a boilerplate clause that says we will test earth leakage (using a sensitive clampmeter) before installation of a new fuseboard even starts. If any leakage is found (this is before removing circuits and testing in the usual way) it will be noted.


    And most people are quite reasonable about 'yes it worked but could have killed you at any time, isn't it lucky the new RCBO's picked it up?


    If they're not reasonable, and withold money unreasonably, mention of 'small claims' makes them see reason :)
  • The irony is that type A/C RCBOs wouldn't solved the problem!

    Cue the mass clamour for all type A/C RCBOs - even those fitted last week by some unfortunates - will have to be removed because they are 'unsafe'.

  • whjohnson:

    The irony is that type A/C RCBOs wouldn't solved the problem!

    Cue the mass clamour for all type A/C RCBOs - even those fitted last week by some unfortunates - will have to be removed because they are 'unsafe'.



    We had a call the other week from a landlord who had his property failed on an EICR due to the presence of a type AC RCD. 


    To me that wasn't a C2. but a C3...improvement recommended.

    I realize it's a judgement call, but the previous electrician had instilled terror into the tenants, that they all might die due to it or something :(


  • -2400-:

    So this video posted this evening is interesting.

    Would (or should) an AFDD have picked up this issue earlier?


    Start at about 3:29 for the background or 6:00 to get straight to it.
    https://youtu.be/xveGg0C_Q88?t=3m29s


     




     



    That’s a video that raises more questions than answers.


    For starters the vlogger could try an internet search to find out the difference between axial and radial domestic ventilation fans as well as which type to choose for which types of installation, then he may have replaced the fan like for like.


    Andy B.



  • MHRestorations:




    whjohnson:

    The irony is that type A/C RCBOs wouldn't solved the problem!

    Cue the mass clamour for all type A/C RCBOs - even those fitted last week by some unfortunates - will have to be removed because they are 'unsafe'.



    We had a call the other week from a landlord who had his property failed on an EICR due to the presence of a type AC RCD. 


    To me that wasn't a C2. but a C3...improvement recommended.

    I realize it's a judgement call, but the previous electrician had instilled terror into the tenants, that they all might die due to it or something :(

     

     




    The discussion has gone off the subject with RCDs being brought into the conversation, they don’t offer protection against arcs.


    Andy Betteridge 

  • Sparks, arcs and quarks!

    Do we need to detect them and what parameters do we set?

    Would it not be more prudent to address some underlying causes of danger like whirlingpool dryers and cage clamps not tunnel terminals for instance?