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Weird Earthing arrangement

Hi all, we're involved in an almost complete rewire of a very old listed 1850s building.   Most of the building is gutted, but 2 rooms are complete, and were rewired circa 2000 and the cables all look good and pass IR tests etc so will be put on separate RCBOs and so forth. That's not the reason for this post though, just background.


We noted on arrival that the supply is two single core PILC cables (it's Gosport, I've seen this a lot in the area, maybe it was common practice by the local undertaking back in the day). These are overall served with bitumen covered hessian and in conduit from the wall. The arrangement means phase and neutral are separate cables, so the service 'head' consists of a henley block for N, and a 100A fuse holder for L (with a 60A cartridge fitted, i confirmed this with the meter fitter).


There's a TN-S style earth clamp on the sheath of both cables together (the wrong kind of clamp but that's par for the course)... but there are two 'rogue' 4mm black wires coming from the N henley block. The post-meter connections go to a rat's nest henley 2 pole phase block that feeds various switchfuses and so on. The TN-S earth from the sheath  goes to the main bonding terminal of a 60 amp switchfuse, and then (without a break) to the second 'piece of switchgear) (a 4 way wylex metal clad board).


Here is where the wtf-ness begins. The external earthing bolts of the wylex board are both used. One by the looped green conductor from the previous switchfuse, and the other by ONE of the 2 4mm blacks coming from the neutral block!


The other 4mm black disappears along with the tails into the innards of the 60A switchfuse which we haven't yet removed.


It's not worrying me overly much because we've been told by the meter operative to cut the seal on the neutral block and remove the offending black wires (he even left a nylon bung for the purpose of closing the vacated hole). He didn't seem overly concerned by the short between a supplier's neutral and earth on a TN-S system, despite my understanding that if there's a fault elsewhere in the neighbourhood, random currents might traverse the unfused 'shouldn't be there' cables?


There's been no recent major work on the mains in the area, so it's not likely to be TN-C-S in disguise... I am attaching pics of the incoming service area (prior to the meter change. The meter chap replaced the woefully undersized cables from the meter and installed an isolator.


Like I say this is just merely of interest rather than real worry as the existing installation boards will be removed, replaced with a modern RCBO board, and treated as true TN-C-S (obviously with Ze and PSCC readings taken and checked. The meter guy installed an isolator for us to make our job easier, then went off to see a pompey match.)
  • If pre-war then almost certainly then it was originally split DC, maybe 200-0-200 or 100-0-100, whatever was the local generation in Gosport at the time.

    It may have been double pole fused initially and then made conventional when modern earthed neutral mains came along.

    If it was fed from the  Gosport/Fareham tramway power station   more on the trams  it would have been set up for  DC tram supplies with domestic more of an afterthought Earthing of trams has always been 'funny' compared to distribution of AC.

    Black was an earth colour, in the days when green was 3rd phase, how old are these black cables . Maybe later someone came along and thought 'ooh er, need to earth those, they are black.?

  • Yet another "PME'd" installation!


    Modern service head has a N-E link - is this any different, except that there is also an E from the "L" part of the PILC?


    My N-E link at home is underground. This makes me wonder why SSE didn't simply make the link at the service head, but perhaps digging a hole in my back lawn was easier?
  • Thanks... the tramway connection is plausible (I've also seen a cast iron cutout labelled cpeu 'city of Portsmouth electrical undertaking' in the same area, altho that was on a more conventional pilc 2 core cable)


    I think the later black wires are a weirdness unrelated to that however (it's copper with pvc outer, so not from the 20s or anywhere near).... when we strip it out i'll try to micrometer a strand or 2 to see if it's imperial or metric.


    I've also seen a few labels on local 3ph incomers (PILC 4 core) stating something akin to 'danger 400v, only authorized persons may interfere'....


    Seen a few 'DANGER: Medium voltage" labels too... which sound odd to modern people (250 to 650v wasn't it?)


  • So you have what appears to be TN-S, but it's TN-C-S under your garden?


    I guess the rule 'assume it's tn-c-s unless proved otherwise' is valid. (at least in the UK where the DNO's connect neutral to earth everywhere they can).


    That wasn't a criticism, just an observation... TN-C-S is operationally easier, if the PEN breaks you notice a lot faster than if the lead sheath is rotten


  • I have to admit that I had never heard of the trams, but I do recall the railway line to RNAD Frater - now a bus-only route, which serves a similar purpose to the old trams. Interesting!

  • MHRestorations:

    So you have what appears to be TN-S, but it's TN-C-S under your garden?


    I guess the rule 'assume it's tn-c-s unless proved otherwise' is valid.




    Precisely! Any sparks who does an EICR would be entitled to conclude that it is TN-S. I doubt that there are any records of the change.


     

  • it is important to realise that a great many services that present as TNS, are not really, as additions in PME and repairs  in modern cable mean that N and E could be bonded almost anywhere between the service head and the substation. It does mean that there may well be standing currents in the earth paths and metallic services, and modest voltage gradients along the street even in normal operation.

    Back the OP, if the black NE links are PVC, you may find that they are a modern and unofficial addition to bolster a flagging earth impedance if the PILC is not going all the way back to the substation any more, please take care when checking for this.
  • I would put in an official request to the local D.N.O. for a P.M.E. earth terminal and get official confirmation of the earthing reliability.


    I do not like those cables close up to the copper pipes. Are they gas pipes or hot water pipes?


    Z.
  • 411.4.1; “In TN systems the exposed conductive parts shall be connected by a protective conductor to the earthed pole of the supply”.

    Well that is the requirement in Ireland, so maybe a job done by Irish lads?

  • MHRestorations:


    Seen a few 'DANGER: Medium voltage" labels too... which sound odd to modern people (250 to 650v wasn't it?)






    Medium voltage (as medium pressure) was defined in the Factories Act (Special Regulations) 1908 as a voltage greater than 250 V but not exceeding 650 V.


    It appears that the Factories Act (Special Regulations) 1908 in its amended form was not actually repealed in full until the introduction of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.