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Earthing neutral

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Why is it forbidden to earth the neutral at the source of a 3 wire system? 


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  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    mapj1:

    It might - consider this rather simplified illustration - you will have to imagine the blackboard and the chalk...


    Imagine you are holding the bare PE, but your feet are in good contact with terra-firm earth, but outside the near field of the electrodes .

    Consider what happens when the TX faults HV phase to frame. The HV phase voltage goes down, and at the same time the HV and LV earth voltages at the fault

    both come up to meet it part way.

    The area of a circle a rod length or two around the electrode goes up a bit of course, but only the earth really near the electrode(s) rises to full fault voltage, then the volts slope off to almost nothing by 2 rod lengths radius. It is better with a large area mesh electrode of course.

    Let us assume the bit of ground you are standing on remains at or near 0V

    Ouch.


    Now repeat that thought experiment, but now with your hand on a similar PE with a mm or 2 of green and yellow stripy plastic between you and it. Not so much Ouch.

    The surge is still bad for kit further along the LV network of course, but the PE = CPC on the LV side is usually multiply earthed on the load side of things as it is bonded to water pipes and so on, so while the end near the transformer may rise to a few hundred V, the bit near the kitchen taps might only rise by a fraction of that.


    There is also a cultural/ historical aspect, as around here bare earth wires more generally are pre1966 , and is seen by many rather like cotton or rubber insulation, asbestos wadding, leadwork and various other things as indicating a "state of the ark"  installation, folk just do not expect to see bare wires for any function.







    Of course, you have a resistive divider- the PE during the HV fault is 3,175 volts to remote earth on an 11kv solidly grounded Y system. So the options are either rapid disconnection of the HV supply (few cycles tops) or impedance earthing of the HV neutral (X0) at the substation.


    Granted inside the building this is less of an issue with bonding bringing everything to the same potential, but if you are outside with a tool then you are referenced to remote earth.



    One can separate the HV and LV neutral- sure- but what happens if HV crosses into the LV? How do we know the earth electrodes on the LV side will facilitate fast enough operation of an HV device? Yes we can measure a stable 5 or 1 ohm on an earth electrode, but after 10 years said electrodes may be 500 or more ohms. 


    Therefore, it is seen advantageous to interconnect the HV neutral with the LV neutral guaranteeing a low impedance path.


    Of course- we can leave them disconnected.


    BUT- why couldn't I earth the neutral 40 feet away once beyond the sphere of HV earth rod influence? Why if I install a paralleled peak shaving generator as my second source must I run an insulated neutral to the Y point?



    I'm going to be frank, but the diagram seems to be based around a 230/400Y system... not considering a true line to line system. 133/230Y is rare in Europe, and where present is going to 230/400Y. Probably why the disconnection times for Uo 121 volts to 230 volts are the same. 


    Of course, BS7671 may know something here.

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  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    mapj1:

    It might - consider this rather simplified illustration - you will have to imagine the blackboard and the chalk...


    Imagine you are holding the bare PE, but your feet are in good contact with terra-firm earth, but outside the near field of the electrodes .

    Consider what happens when the TX faults HV phase to frame. The HV phase voltage goes down, and at the same time the HV and LV earth voltages at the fault

    both come up to meet it part way.

    The area of a circle a rod length or two around the electrode goes up a bit of course, but only the earth really near the electrode(s) rises to full fault voltage, then the volts slope off to almost nothing by 2 rod lengths radius. It is better with a large area mesh electrode of course.

    Let us assume the bit of ground you are standing on remains at or near 0V

    Ouch.


    Now repeat that thought experiment, but now with your hand on a similar PE with a mm or 2 of green and yellow stripy plastic between you and it. Not so much Ouch.

    The surge is still bad for kit further along the LV network of course, but the PE = CPC on the LV side is usually multiply earthed on the load side of things as it is bonded to water pipes and so on, so while the end near the transformer may rise to a few hundred V, the bit near the kitchen taps might only rise by a fraction of that.


    There is also a cultural/ historical aspect, as around here bare earth wires more generally are pre1966 , and is seen by many rather like cotton or rubber insulation, asbestos wadding, leadwork and various other things as indicating a "state of the ark"  installation, folk just do not expect to see bare wires for any function.







    Of course, you have a resistive divider- the PE during the HV fault is 3,175 volts to remote earth on an 11kv solidly grounded Y system. So the options are either rapid disconnection of the HV supply (few cycles tops) or impedance earthing of the HV neutral (X0) at the substation.


    Granted inside the building this is less of an issue with bonding bringing everything to the same potential, but if you are outside with a tool then you are referenced to remote earth.



    One can separate the HV and LV neutral- sure- but what happens if HV crosses into the LV? How do we know the earth electrodes on the LV side will facilitate fast enough operation of an HV device? Yes we can measure a stable 5 or 1 ohm on an earth electrode, but after 10 years said electrodes may be 500 or more ohms. 


    Therefore, it is seen advantageous to interconnect the HV neutral with the LV neutral guaranteeing a low impedance path.


    Of course- we can leave them disconnected.


    BUT- why couldn't I earth the neutral 40 feet away once beyond the sphere of HV earth rod influence? Why if I install a paralleled peak shaving generator as my second source must I run an insulated neutral to the Y point?



    I'm going to be frank, but the diagram seems to be based around a 230/400Y system... not considering a true line to line system. 133/230Y is rare in Europe, and where present is going to 230/400Y. Probably why the disconnection times for Uo 121 volts to 230 volts are the same. 


    Of course, BS7671 may know something here.

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