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Re terminating ancient cables

Martyn
Hi Folks, 


So I may have a job in the offing where I will need to temporally re terminate these 3 cables, the one on the right is only 1m long so I’ll just replace it. 


The other two are rising mains from the 1940’s each feeding 20 flats, I believe them to be armoured PILC’s though happy to be corrected, the lead is being used as the earth. 


Has anyone re terminated similar and are there any pitfalls that may scupper me? 


The re termination will only be temporary whilst the new building network is being installed.89f8b92115c4d5d4e672a2d7771fc855-huge-a8ae4b2d-f17a-4e4e-a594-4469fa0801a0.jpg



Cheers 


Martyn
  • 0
    For the benefit of those that follow.... attached are views of the inside of that LUCY cutout


    (Pictures taken during a power down - DNO officially pulled the fuses)



    1ee28442dc36395f2c1475f7c43eda74-huge-dscf0855.jpg
    f6c063beb401f252df0d6e9161f154b8-huge-dscf0853.jpg
    eb716385ecd307e9489bc5ef8c0abcb9-huge-dscf0851.jpg
    6686a04de7365512b2c91b18680da303-huge-dscf0847.jpg

  • 0
    Who is the DNO ? They will replace damaged/dangerous equipment for free, as they are required to maintain their kit, but generally on a timescale of their own convenience. If the supply cable outdoors is exposed, then not only will it be jointed, but it should be capped over to give it some protection.

    It may help to send them some photos of their cables and cut out parts of the set up to speed them on their way.
  • 0

    Alan Capon:

    I can’t remember where the asbestos is in that type of cutout, but it is likely to be in the phase barriers at least. It is conceivable that the DNO will want to cut it out and bag it, without opening it, due to the risk of releasing asbestos fibres in to the atmosphere. The usual method is a “dig and cut” to isolate it outside, then suitable cutters on the cables inside. If it has been obviously interfered with, for example the DNOs seals missing, they may request an asbestos survey of the immediate area first. 


    As OMS has stated, I would have expected the SWA to have an outer hessian wrapping, which may have failed and fallen away due to age, rodent attack, or overheating. If overheating was the cause, the insulating papers may be dry and brittle, the impregnating oil having long since dried. 


    Regards,


    Alan. 




    Hi Alan, 


    You are correct, It is the phase flash shields, look a lot like modern paxolin but 1940s.


    The supply is actually above ground outside, maybe erosion but does not look like it was ever buried!


    Do you know what if any responsibility the DNO have for replacing old heads/ removing asbestos sources if requested to do so?


    Thanks


    Martyn 

  • 0

    OMS:

    Those cables are almost certainly paper insulated lead covered with steel wire armouring. Originally they would almost certainly had hessian covering with an impregnated denso type paste. They look  they've dried through and lost the covering.


    Difficult to judge but they look as if they are terminated (badly) into an enclosure full of bitumen, or to a dry enclosure and the lead sheath has been formed over what is effectively a conduit coupler to act as a gland, and to allow clamping to the sheath for earthing purposes


    Personally, unless you have good experience jointing and terminating PILC, I would leave them well alone, even on a temporary basis.


    Probably easier to replace with a length of wavecon if acceptable to the DNO as a temporary BNO cable or use a length of SWA


    Regards


    OMS




    Hey OMS, long time no see! 


    Yes a closer look around does seem to reveal the remnants of hessian, cables rise through the building some 30m I would guess, no outer covering left anywhere that I have seen.


    The terminations above the head is a dry box although with a few ends from old supplies cut off. 


    I have not investigated the ‘glanding’ as the Main Neutral is loose, cant be moving anything about. 


    You will have correctly guessed PILC’s are not my daily bread, maybe 19 last time I dealt with one. 


    If I can get a second supply whilst retaining the existing that makes for a few easier options! 


    Cheers 


    Martyn











     

  • 0

    Sparkingchip:

    Note the asbestos sticker on the DNO head, they are not going to work on it without throwing a bucket of water over it.


    From experience this will probably mean that a hole is dug outside the building, the supply cable cut and a new PVC cable run in from a joint to a new replacement head. Then a bucket of water can be thrown into the old head prior to it’s removal.


    So nothing is salvageable from outside to building onwards. It seems more sensible to install the new equipment and cables then swap them over in a day.


    I have not done that with more than seven flats and that was a busy day with metering services onsite as well as the DNO and myself, I was there until about half eight in the evening making the final connection as I could not finish until after everyone else had. Then metering services sent a lady the next day to ensure every flat was on the correct meter.


     Andy Betteridge 




    Hi Andy, Cheers for your thoughts, Your correct on the Asbestos, there is a sticker on just about everything there! Most of it is for flash shields etc, they are all over the place. 


    Most of the meters here are in the individual flats which is good I suppose, that said unless there is 15+ on site there is not a hope in hell of doing a 1 day changeover.


    May look at getting a second supply tapped externally and removing the old one at the end... logistical challenges ahead. 



    Thanks


    Martyn

     

  • 0
    I can’t remember where the asbestos is in that type of cutout, but it is likely to be in the phase barriers at least. It is conceivable that the DNO will want to cut it out and bag it, without opening it, due to the risk of releasing asbestos fibres in to the atmosphere. The usual method is a “dig and cut” to isolate it outside, then suitable cutters on the cables inside. If it has been obviously interfered with, for example the DNOs seals missing, they may request an asbestos survey of the immediate area first. 


    As OMS has stated, I would have expected the SWA to have an outer hessian wrapping, which may have failed and fallen away due to age, rodent attack, or overheating. If overheating was the cause, the insulating papers may be dry and brittle, the impregnating oil having long since dried. 


    Regards,


    Alan.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Those cables are almost certainly paper insulated lead covered with steel wire armouring. Originally they would almost certainly had hessian covering with an impregnated denso type paste. They look like they've dried through and lost the covering.


    Difficult to judge but they look as if they are terminated (badly) into an enclosure full of bitumen, or to a dry enclosure and the lead sheath has been formed over what is effectively a conduit coupler to act as a gland, and to allow clamping to the sheath for earthing purposes


    Personally, unless you have good experience jointing and terminating PILC, I would leave them well alone, even on a temporary basis.


    Probably easier to replace with a length of wavecon if acceptable to the DNO as a temporary BNO cable or use a length of SWA




    Regards


    OMS
  • 0
    Note the asbestos sticker on the DNO head, they are not going to work on it without throwing a bucket of water over it.


    From experience this will probably mean that a hole is dug outside the building, the supply cable cut and a new PVC cable run in from a joint to a new replacement head. Then a bucket of water can be thrown into the old head prior to it’s removal.


    So nothing is salvageable from outside to building onwards. It seems more sensible to install the new equipment and cables then swap them over in a day.


    I have not done that with more than seven flats and that was a busy day with metering services onsite as well as the DNO and myself, I was there until about half eight in the evening making the final connection as I could not finish until after everyone else had. Then metering services sent a lady the next day to ensure every flat was on the correct meter.


     Andy Betteridge
  • 0
    Cheers Mike, 


    I will have the meter or so spare from the right hand cable to do a bit of a test on and stripping it etc at least that will give an indication as to if I need to be putting some temporary SWA’s in!


    On the waiting game with the DNO at the minute, I am hoping they will terminate their service cable directly in to a new Multi service unit! 


    Thanks


    Martyn
  • 0
    If they are really lead clad, that is better news.

    Unless it is rubber covered wire clad in lead, which was not really used in that sort of size,  it will be waxed or oiled paper under the lead, which is actually very robust, so long as you do not kink it sharply where the cores come out of the lead sheath, nor wind it up,  or the ends have overheated and lost their 'greaseproofed paper' appearance.

    Section 3.1is the 'how to ' for safely opening up paper insulated lead clad. Note the use of binding with a wire or a hose clip to retain the cable integrity during cutting, and to give a clean end stop to the 'peeling' process.

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