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Re terminating ancient cables

Hi Folks, 


So I may have a job in the offing where I will need to temporally re terminate these 3 cables, the one on the right is only 1m long so I’ll just replace it. 


The other two are rising mains from the 1940’s each feeding 20 flats, I believe them to be armoured PILC’s though happy to be corrected, the lead is being used as the earth. 


Has anyone re terminated similar and are there any pitfalls that may scupper me? 


The re termination will only be temporary whilst the new building network is being installed.89f8b92115c4d5d4e672a2d7771fc855-huge-a8ae4b2d-f17a-4e4e-a594-4469fa0801a0.jpg



Cheers 


Martyn

  • OMS:

    Those cables are almost certainly paper insulated lead covered with steel wire armouring. Originally they would almost certainly had hessian covering with an impregnated denso type paste. They look  they've dried through and lost the covering.


    Difficult to judge but they look as if they are terminated (badly) into an enclosure full of bitumen, or to a dry enclosure and the lead sheath has been formed over what is effectively a conduit coupler to act as a gland, and to allow clamping to the sheath for earthing purposes


    Personally, unless you have good experience jointing and terminating PILC, I would leave them well alone, even on a temporary basis.


    Probably easier to replace with a length of wavecon if acceptable to the DNO as a temporary BNO cable or use a length of SWA


    Regards


    OMS




    Hey OMS, long time no see! 


    Yes a closer look around does seem to reveal the remnants of hessian, cables rise through the building some 30m I would guess, no outer covering left anywhere that I have seen.


    The terminations above the head is a dry box although with a few ends from old supplies cut off. 


    I have not investigated the ‘glanding’ as the Main Neutral is loose, cant be moving anything about. 


    You will have correctly guessed PILC’s are not my daily bread, maybe 19 last time I dealt with one. 


    If I can get a second supply whilst retaining the existing that makes for a few easier options! 


    Cheers 


    Martyn











     


  • Alan Capon:

    I can’t remember where the asbestos is in that type of cutout, but it is likely to be in the phase barriers at least. It is conceivable that the DNO will want to cut it out and bag it, without opening it, due to the risk of releasing asbestos fibres in to the atmosphere. The usual method is a “dig and cut” to isolate it outside, then suitable cutters on the cables inside. If it has been obviously interfered with, for example the DNOs seals missing, they may request an asbestos survey of the immediate area first. 


    As OMS has stated, I would have expected the SWA to have an outer hessian wrapping, which may have failed and fallen away due to age, rodent attack, or overheating. If overheating was the cause, the insulating papers may be dry and brittle, the impregnating oil having long since dried. 


    Regards,


    Alan. 




    Hi Alan, 


    You are correct, It is the phase flash shields, look a lot like modern paxolin but 1940s.


    The supply is actually above ground outside, maybe erosion but does not look like it was ever buried!


    Do you know what if any responsibility the DNO have for replacing old heads/ removing asbestos sources if requested to do so?


    Thanks


    Martyn 

  • Who is the DNO ? They will replace damaged/dangerous equipment for free, as they are required to maintain their kit, but generally on a timescale of their own convenience. If the supply cable outdoors is exposed, then not only will it be jointed, but it should be capped over to give it some protection.

    It may help to send them some photos of their cables and cut out parts of the set up to speed them on their way.
  • For the benefit of those that follow.... attached are views of the inside of that LUCY cutout


    (Pictures taken during a power down - DNO officially pulled the fuses)



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  • One thing immediately struck me.. The cables outgoing to the cutouts have been re-taped with new colours, but my old mind immediately parsed it as white* phase, neutral, red phase, and blue phase (I'm slightly colourblind, not a good trait for an electrician, I know, i've heard all the jokes... and had parsed brown as 'red') Then I zoomed in and saw the link on 'blue phase' and went 'oh... white is grey... and... what a horrible mistake to make.


    * no I'm not THAT old, only in my 40s... but i've worked on some ancient installations and know the history of the yellow phase at one time being white. Even have some red-white-blue threecore in my museum (of that thread fame)... PE insulated and sheathed, and yes it's very flammable.. but less so than VIR or TRS.  And no earth.. (wasn't called a CPC back in them days!)
  • At first, I was confused, but then I realised that the photos show a completely different installation, which appears to have been looked after and in good order.
  • Yeah... it's a different installation, sorry, I should have made that clearer. I added the photos to show others the inside of an (identical) cutout.


    The outgoing cables are new. The purpose of the shutdown was to replace the somewhat aged oil switch with a modern HBC fused switch (we realised that the oil switch had never been serviced & nobody was willing to operate it on load!) The pics show the cutout with new cables terminated & waiting for the DNO to re-energise. 


    I initially expected that the DNO would decline to pull the fuses & insist on replacing that metal cutout, but the guy who turned up took a look at it & declared that he was willing to pull the fuses.
  • I only wish ours was in such good condition! 


    The inside has mixed porcelain fuse carriers with unknown fuses as they would not come out almost as though they had welded themselves in. The flash guards you see in this one are not all there and the ones that are have long since broken. Lock it up and throw away the key was the decision until DNO will attend, although they have declared they have no asbestos trained staff so will refuse to maintain it themselves.


    Pulling teeth at the moment.
  • Are they lugged fuses bolted in then ? If so and over tightened, then the fuse tabs may have been sunk into the soft copper, if that has happened, then no amount of pulling straight out will remove the fuses, but some side-strike is needed.

    In any case, it is up to the DNO to replace it, as it is clearly their kit,  probably by cutting it out as one piece, as others have suggested, as that sidesteps the awkward asbestos questions.  Which DNO is your area ? No folk to  follow the asbestos procedures seems a bit unlikely, it makes you wonder what they would do if the fuses blew.
  • Hi Mike, 


    The DNO is actually the IDNO, SSE.


    They stated more than once that they had no Asbestos trained personnel. 


    Still awaiting a reply on scheduling an engineering visit! 


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