Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 38 replies
  • Subscribers 32 subscribers
  • Views 8165 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion is locked.
You cannot post a reply to this discussion. If you have a question start a new discussion

EICR C3 mixed manufacturer breakers

Martyn
I know this will have been discussed in the past but we are on Amd 1 of the 18th now so I thought I would renew it.


The Best practice guides list mixed manufacturer breakers in a consumer unit or distribution board as a C3.


As far as I am aware Bs7671 does not have a Reg on it beyond manufacturers instructions and given EICR's are based on this standard perhaps it is justified on that basis.


Most on here will be familiar with the 16kA 'rule' in BSEN61439 Annex ZB or its predecessor BSEN60439 Annex ZA


I avoid C3's like the plague because they give all the wrong signals to a client and clearly by definition are for things which are a breach of the regs, I'm not too keen on the insurance risk of a C3 either.


My question here would be what fault rating can one apply to an enclosure where there are mixed breakers given a manufacturer will only have certified their equipment with their devices?


Enjoy!


Martyn
  • 0

    Martynduerden:

    I know this will have been discussed in the past but we are on Amd 1 of the 18th now ...




    Eh, what, where, who did that? ?

  • 0
    This is an interesting one.

    Last week I fitted 2 x WISKA plastic 1P65 8 way consumer units in garages and outbuildings.

    WISKA state on the accompanying paperwork that their "......enclosures are manufactured and designed to be acceptable to take all the commercially available devices in line with BS EN 60898.

    This complies with the R.D.842/2002, directive 2014/35/UE (DBT) and BSEN2208."

    Make of that what you will.

    I just fitted some stuff from CEF, namely a 30ma upfront main switch/RCD and a couple  of mcbs.

    OK, the switchgear was of one brand, but the enclosure was from another!
  • 0
    Just future proofing the post, https://electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/updates/
  • 0

    whjohnson:

    This is an interesting one.

    Last week I fitted 2 x WISKA plastic 1P65 8 way consumer units in garages and outbuildings.

    WISKA state on the accompanying paperwork that their "......enclosures are manufactured and designed to be acceptable to take all the commercially available devices in line with BS EN 60898.

    This complies with the R.D.842/2002, directive 2014/35/UE (DBT) and BSEN2208."

    Make of that what you will.

    I just fitted some stuff from CEF, namely a 30ma upfront main switch/RCD and a couple  of mcbs.

    OK, the switchgear was of one brand, but the enclosure was from another!




    I didn't know WISKA did consumer units!


    Did you CE mark the 'Panel' ? ?

  • 0
    I would say it depends. If you are using Devices that have a higher breaking capacity than the supply PSSC, then C3. If the Devices have a lower breaking capacity than the supply PSSC, then you will be relying on the dispensation, and there could be justification for a C2. 


    Regarding making your own consumer unit from bits, you become the manufacturer and you will need to declare its characteristics, and how you are complying with the dispensation if necessary. You will possibly also have to CE Mark it as well. 


    Regards,


    Alan.
  • 0

    Alan Capon:

    I would say it depends. If you are using Devices that have a higher breaking capacity than the supply PSSC, then C3. If the Devices have a lower breaking capacity than the supply PSSC, then you will be relying on the dispensation, and there could be justification for a C2.

     




    But what about the enclosure itself Alan? Clearly the devices have a certified kA rating and that is fairly easy to ascertain but the enclosures kA rating is manufacturer certified subject to use of their prescribed devices, what figure could we assume other than 0kA for an enclosure not intended for mixed devices?

  • 0
    The item code is WISKA IP65 INDUSTRIAL DISTRIBUTION BOXES.1303 (3 way) 1304 (4 way) 1306 (6 way) 1308 (8 way) and so on.

    The enclosure is already CE (Chinese Export) marked.
  • 0

    Martynduerden:

    But what about the enclosure itself Alan? Clearly the devices have a certified kA rating and that is fairly easy to ascertain but the enclosures kA rating is manufacturer certified subject to use of their prescribed devices . . . 




    That is where the entertainment begins. In theory an mcb used at or below its rated fault current will trip on a fault as everyone expects every time. If the mcb is used above it’s rated current, it may trip correctly, or it may fail catastrophically. The idea of the conditional “rated assembly” is that if the device fails attempting to trip, the enclosure will contain all the bits, including the explosion until the upstream protective device (the supplier’s cutout for example) clears the fault. If the type-tested assembly fails, then the manufacturer may be liable. If they can then prove the presence of another manufacturer’s device or a device of theirs that was not included in the testing was fitted, then it is likely they have no liability. 


    My reason for not giving a definite response, is that a catastrophic failure of a type-tested assembly would have to be examined in a court of law for an absolute judgement. 


    Regards,


    Alan. 

  • 0
    Martyn


    The Regulation you are looking for is 536.4.203 for mix and match circuit breakers . A C3 unless the board has been mutilated, bus bars bent, cover cut away then a C2.
  • 0

    John Peckham:

    Martyn


    The Regulation you are looking for is 536.4.203 for mix and match circuit breakers . A C3 unless the board has been mutilated, bus bars bent, cover cut away then a C2. 






    Cheers John, 


    A ‘new’ one in the 18th. 


    I wonder if a manufacturer would honour the kA rating of a device if sited next to another manufacturers? I suspect not. 


    The question still remains what kA rating(s) can be relied upon for devices and enclosures where they are installed beyond their design? 


    Personally this always gets a C1 from me for the simple reason that PFC will always be greater than zero kA and the only rating I can apply to the enclosures and devices is zero kA, unless I test the enclosure etc 


    As an aside, What is the point in comparing to current regs and having C3 codes? The two things seem mutually exclusive, a C3 also seems an insurance risk, second guessing of the regulation it fails And deciding that one doesn't really matter if you like.


    Cheers


    Martyn

     

Join us to get the best from IET EngX.

Joining EngX lets you personalise your experience so you stay up to date on the topics that interest you, plus you’ll be able to make connections who are looking to collaborate, exchange ideas and more.

Join us Not now

Community Rules & Guidelines