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Details of BS7671:2018 Amendment 1 are here.

Details of Amendment 1 of BS7671:2018 is available here: https://electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/updates/


Regards,


Alan.

  • If it cost £10 to prevent each death then it is £10 well spent.




    Indeed, but that is not to be confused with spending £10 on each of 30 million households, to prevent a death in just one of them - this is why it is not worth adding RCDs  or ripping out plastic consumer units unless you are rewiring anyway.

    Some dispassionate logic follows.

    For quick sums, let us assume the treasury cost of a life is nearer £1million, then spending something more like 33p on each of 30 million households, per life saved nationally, over the expected life of the average such installation, would the correct threshold beyond which you are wasting resources.

    So if we can save 10 lives a year nationally, and the average house is rewired every 30 years, (this is a high limit, lower nos reduce the monetary figures to follow) then there are potentially 300 lives to save or lose over the next 30 years, so £300 million to save spread over 30 million households, only then does each one get a tenner to spend on a cost effective safety measure.

    Of course due to inflation, it may appear cheaper or more expensive to fix things next year, depending if life costs or part costs rise faster, but the ratiometric scaling idea still applies.


    I'd be tempted to suggest in many cases we can save more lives with the same or less money from getting people to check for loose carpets on stairs, or checking their hot water temperatures.

     



  • mapj1:

    that is not to be confused with spending £10 on each of 30 million households, to prevent a death in just one of them




    I agree, which is why I said the real cost was in between. To complicate the matter further you also have to estimate the number of potential deaths over the life of the installations rather than the number of deaths per year as you have done, both of which are impossible to do as we have no historical data to extrapolate from. I suspect your 10 lives a year is too high, and as for how often houses are rewired, your guess is as good as mine (actually, your guess is probably better than mine). I think 30 million households is a bit high and not every household has a car, but the figure is lower than the number of cars, so who knows....


    The issue is not will the money save more lives if spent elsewhere, as the answer to that is nearly always going to be "yes". The issue is whether it is worth spending the money here - money spent elsewhere to save lives should be spent as well as, not instead of.


    Alasdair

  • Money should only be spent to save lives, here or elsewhere, when it is cost -effective to do so. Anything else is a netloss to society.

  • Mike,

    I think we agree on that - we just state is in different terms.

  • That to some extent is my gripe. The amendment aims to deal with the risk in single phase installations, but not 3-phase ones.



    Yes, the new device described in option (iv) - based on the L-N voltage going out of bounds - is only permitted for single phase installations. From what I gather that's not casting any aspersions on 3-phase systems, but an acknowledgement that the approach is basically flawed as it is possible to have a combination of 3-phase loads and a broken PEN such that a L-N voltage is still within 230V+/-10% but the PEN is way over 70V from true Earth. If you do have a 3-phase system (and can't compare voltage with an electrode) you're far better off using one of the approaches in option (iii) - i.e. comparing with an artificial N point generated from all three lines (see A722.4) as that's far more reliable. So basically the most flawed approach is only allowed where there's no better alternative.


       - Andy.

  • mapj1:

    Money should only be spent to save lives, here or elsewhere, when it is cost -effective to do so. Anything else is a netloss to society.




    Or save QUALYs - quality adjusted life years. I recently had a conversation with my GP about my lipid levels. So I am a bloke who is over 50 and my blood pressure was a bit high. By spending a little each week on lipid and blood pressure reducing medication, the NHS reduces my risk of having a heart attack or stroke. That reduces the risk that the NHS will have to care for an invalid. However, the important thing is that the NHS mustn't spend more on screening and treating those who screen positive, than it saves on treating those who suffer an adverse event. And don't forget to add into the equation that if I died from a sudden heart attack, the Navy would stop paying my pension and I would never receive a state pension.


    Relevance to the thread, or at least the way that it has drifted, is that cost-benefit analyses are v. complicated.


    Concerning Mike's point, ever the scientist, but I do think that it is reasonable (but not necessarily desirable) to place a value on a life, which may tip the balance one way or another.


  • AJJewsbury:




    That to some extent is my gripe. The amendment aims to deal with the risk in single phase installations, but not 3-phase ones.



    Yes, the new device described in option (iv) - based on the L-N voltage going out of bounds - is only permitted for single phase installations. From what I gather that's not casting any aspersions on 3-phase systems, but an acknowledgement that the approach is basically flawed as it is possible to have a combination of 3-phase loads and a broken PEN such that a L-N voltage is still within 230V+/-10% but the PEN is way over 70V from true Earth. If you do have a 3-phase system (and can't compare voltage with an electrode) you're far better off using one of the approaches in option (iii) - i.e. comparing with an artificial N point generated from all three lines (see A722.4) as that's far more reliable. So basically the most flawed approach is only allowed where there's no better alternative.

    Quite so! So we have a fudge for single phase, but not 3-phase.


    What was so wrong with the domestic exemption of 17+3?
  • I think that if I was an EV manufacturer, I would be thinking that these bods in the U.K. are giving grief about the installation of charging points and I would set about building a vehicle that didn’t give a toss what the earthing system was. My guess is that most of 722 will end up superfluous as the problem will be solved by the car itself.

  • lyledunn:

    I think that if I was an EV manufacturer, I would be thinking that these bods in the U.K. are giving grief about the installation of charging points and I would set about building a vehicle that didn’t give a toss what the earthing system was. My guess is that most of 722 will end up superfluous as the problem will be solved by the car itself.  




    Cars with a carbon fibre body? Now somebody is going to tell me (again) that carbon fibre is conductive. ?

  • No, just a double insulated charger in the car.

    Needs to rectify the mains, 4 diodes if 1 phase, 6 if 3 phase, some PFC electronics, probably active, so possibly multiples of  2fets and 2 inductors phased to give no dead gap - makes the RFI filters easier than having hard switching. This steps up the rectified sine onto a DC bus, perhaps 350 - 400V. (not perhaps built quite like  this one however  some folk have too much free time)


    The DC bus smoothed and then fed to a large push-pull SMPS,  similar things exist already   wound on some bosky ferrite with the addition of an EMC catcher inter-winding screen connected to one side of the DC bus, and then  a layer of insulation that passes the class II pat test, and a secondary winding that is earthed to the car side . 

    Could be made with a number of smaller transformers to make cooling easier. Multiples of 2/4/8 suit digital control and would allow optimum efficiency for both fast (perhaps 30kw ) and slow  (2-3 kW) charging by not bothering to waste energy to magnetise cores that are not needed.

    All in a plastic enclosure about the size of a 2 shoe boxes with a one piece plastic snout  coming to a flap like a petrol filler for the charging lead.