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Mains frequency

Just checked the dynamic demand site and the frequency was down to around49.7 cycles almost down to the lower legal limit never seen that before
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  • OMS:

    I've often thought about the impact of more and more invertor derived AC on the grid, and less and less conventional synchronous generation on the grid


    As we move more to the former, and less of the latter one has to wonder if at some point we need to introduce a central or regional frequency clock to kick all the invertors back into synch


    The man who owns that clock, owns the world !!


    Regards


    OMS




    There is a centralised clock - already used in fact. It's called Greenwich Mean Time, provided by the  National Physics Laboratory.


    Much has been said about the inertia of rotary generators. If the load on the grid increases, the generator speed decreases. The governors sense this and cause more steam to be injected until a new equilibrium is reached where the generation once again matches demand. The kinetic energy released as the generators lose speed provides the shortfall between turbine power generated and demand.


    We are now running at slightly reduced frequency - an offset compared with target frequency. Hence the grid "clock" running slightly slow compared with Greenwich time. As long as this situation persists, a time disparity, i.e. difference between grid time  and Greenwich time, builds up. The object is to eliminate this disparity. It is theoretically possible to feed back the disparity into the turbo-generator speed control system. In Control Engineering terms, integral action eliminates the offset.  


    In the days when I worked in the electricity supply industry (1960s), this level of automation was not applied, to my knowledge, though the technology was available then. Grid control engineers preferred to adjust things manually by calling power stations to deliver requested output. Apart from the consideration of  maximising usage of the most efficient plant, issues affecting the locality of individual power stations could make it impracticable to use them to try to regulate grid frequency automatically. Nowadays there is the additional complication of regulating the trading among the many private power providers. My guess is that there is still a lot of manual control - does anyone have up-to-date knowledge on this?


    Inverters have no inertia, and I am not sure it is desirable to design them to simulate inertia. Their output frequency is not affected by load, and can "lock-in" to an existing mains frequency. We could provide a control frequency by radio transmission. There are ways in which we could regulate power output if desired, though it would be sensible to divert excess power to battery storage.




    Posted by Simon Barker on Feb 14, 2020 8:13 am



    Or build big battery banks around the country.  Spare power from renewables can be stored.  Then when the generations drops too low, the batteries can top the grid up for long enough to bring backup generators on line.




    On a grid system powered by solar power we would certainly lose the stability provided by inertia. However, this is hypothetical, since I cannot envisage such systems. Solar panels are not very clever at night. Also bear in mind that nuclear power, though not strictly renewable, is virtually carbon free and is going to be with us for a good while yet. It is going to be some time before we worry about losing the stability of inertia.



     

Reply

  • OMS:

    I've often thought about the impact of more and more invertor derived AC on the grid, and less and less conventional synchronous generation on the grid


    As we move more to the former, and less of the latter one has to wonder if at some point we need to introduce a central or regional frequency clock to kick all the invertors back into synch


    The man who owns that clock, owns the world !!


    Regards


    OMS




    There is a centralised clock - already used in fact. It's called Greenwich Mean Time, provided by the  National Physics Laboratory.


    Much has been said about the inertia of rotary generators. If the load on the grid increases, the generator speed decreases. The governors sense this and cause more steam to be injected until a new equilibrium is reached where the generation once again matches demand. The kinetic energy released as the generators lose speed provides the shortfall between turbine power generated and demand.


    We are now running at slightly reduced frequency - an offset compared with target frequency. Hence the grid "clock" running slightly slow compared with Greenwich time. As long as this situation persists, a time disparity, i.e. difference between grid time  and Greenwich time, builds up. The object is to eliminate this disparity. It is theoretically possible to feed back the disparity into the turbo-generator speed control system. In Control Engineering terms, integral action eliminates the offset.  


    In the days when I worked in the electricity supply industry (1960s), this level of automation was not applied, to my knowledge, though the technology was available then. Grid control engineers preferred to adjust things manually by calling power stations to deliver requested output. Apart from the consideration of  maximising usage of the most efficient plant, issues affecting the locality of individual power stations could make it impracticable to use them to try to regulate grid frequency automatically. Nowadays there is the additional complication of regulating the trading among the many private power providers. My guess is that there is still a lot of manual control - does anyone have up-to-date knowledge on this?


    Inverters have no inertia, and I am not sure it is desirable to design them to simulate inertia. Their output frequency is not affected by load, and can "lock-in" to an existing mains frequency. We could provide a control frequency by radio transmission. There are ways in which we could regulate power output if desired, though it would be sensible to divert excess power to battery storage.




    Posted by Simon Barker on Feb 14, 2020 8:13 am



    Or build big battery banks around the country.  Spare power from renewables can be stored.  Then when the generations drops too low, the batteries can top the grid up for long enough to bring backup generators on line.




    On a grid system powered by solar power we would certainly lose the stability provided by inertia. However, this is hypothetical, since I cannot envisage such systems. Solar panels are not very clever at night. Also bear in mind that nuclear power, though not strictly renewable, is virtually carbon free and is going to be with us for a good while yet. It is going to be some time before we worry about losing the stability of inertia.



     

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