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5 second disconnection times

Hi all


Something that I have always wondered about since I started doing electrical work.


The 0.4 and 5 second disconnection times. 0.4 makes sense as it is quick.

However 5 seconds still seems a long time for exposed conductive parts to remain live. When I first started, lighting circuits had a 5s time.

Now it's 0.4 for all circuits feeding socket outlets up to 63A but only for fixed equipment up to 32A. So any equipment over 32A can be 5s.

The reason given in collage was that it was portable equipment that can be picked up and gripped but fixed equipment can be pulled away from.

Previously, in 16th ed regs, the 0.4 was for socket outlets and circuits supplying equipment that can be hand held.

However, 5 seconds still seems a long time for exposed metalwork to be live. I know with a low impedance earth the voltage will be lower, but still.


The other thing is that even a distribution circuit that can have 5s dis time, on an earth fault, say in an armoured cable, all earthed metalwork can be live for the full 5 seconds, even hand held equipment on circuits with a 0.4s dis time. I realise that if the fault was on the actual item of equipment itself the voltage would be higher.


Any equipment, though, above 32A can still have a 5s dis time. I come across fixed equipment all the time that is above 32A. This equipment quite often has parts of it that can actually be gripped. When the body has electricity passing though it the muscles contract so it may be hard to pull away.

I've seen a video of three men pushing a tower hitting an overhead HV line. all three dropped down but their hands still gripped the scaffold poles.

I know were dealing with LV but the muscles still react the same.

Even showers could once have a 5s dis time and the only thing that has changed that is the regs for RCDs in rooms containing a bath or shower. It's still on a circuit that, without the RCD, allows 5s.


The fact that the regs have tightened up of what circuits can have 5s dis times shows that there is still a danger on 5s. Otherwise, why change them to 0.4s.


Any thoughts?



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  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    I agree that it won't always be dominated by the transformer, but as you place current on the output terminals voltage will begin to drop. 230 vs 200 vs 150 volts between the X1 and X0 terminals is enough to make a significant time difference in the body graph when dealing with a hand to foot resistance of resistance of 1000 ohms. Especially when the IEC assumes that body resistance itself will change based on contact voltage.


    Supply transformers are becoming larger through out the world and I think this is why IEC-60364-4-41 now requires the 0.4 second disconnection time be extended socket circuits up to 63 amps.


    Regarding the UK that would be correct, however it still works out by leaps and bounds vs the minimum requirments of BS7671 or table 41.1.  Disconnection times (0.4 and 5s) can not be met or achieved via the thermal element in UK/EU MCBs and hence rely on the magnetic (solenoid) trip function. This means that even the max listed EFLI values for type B-D 125 amp MCBs will result in disconnection faster than 0.1 seconds. This leaves us with fuses/devices 125 amps and over which typically have a Zs of <0.25 ohms. Going by ohms law 0.2 gives us 265kw or 1,150 amps with an infinite source. A 250kw rated heater being placed across any phase and earth will result in a measurable drop in output voltage on a 5% Z 166kva transformer (assume the 500kva unit is a bank of 3 166kva units). Transformer voltage regulation is excellent at unity power factor, however sharply declines with lagging power factor. Reactance begins to dominate as you go up in wire size, so where as a 1mm2 lighting circuit will be seen as almost a purely resisitive load (during a fault), a circuit over 63 amps will dedicate at least half or more of its fault current to maintaining the magnetic field around each conductor. Consider current division and open over head conductors in the fault loop and XL dominates substantially.


    Try this, play around with the slides in relation to lagging loads vs unity loads to give you an idea:


      https://voltage-disturbance.com/power-engineering/transformer-voltage-regulation/



    Lastly consider that a final circuit is Zs=Ze+(R1+R2)... part of a whole when wiring a building...  meaning sub circuits from board to board are rarely run to their maximum EFLI having to of a low enough Z to allow for the final circuits to be long enough to hit all the devices through out. 


    In summary faults will either disconnect in less than 0.1 seconds, or result in significant voltage drop through the transformer making fault point voltage to remote earth minor.
Reply
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    I agree that it won't always be dominated by the transformer, but as you place current on the output terminals voltage will begin to drop. 230 vs 200 vs 150 volts between the X1 and X0 terminals is enough to make a significant time difference in the body graph when dealing with a hand to foot resistance of resistance of 1000 ohms. Especially when the IEC assumes that body resistance itself will change based on contact voltage.


    Supply transformers are becoming larger through out the world and I think this is why IEC-60364-4-41 now requires the 0.4 second disconnection time be extended socket circuits up to 63 amps.


    Regarding the UK that would be correct, however it still works out by leaps and bounds vs the minimum requirments of BS7671 or table 41.1.  Disconnection times (0.4 and 5s) can not be met or achieved via the thermal element in UK/EU MCBs and hence rely on the magnetic (solenoid) trip function. This means that even the max listed EFLI values for type B-D 125 amp MCBs will result in disconnection faster than 0.1 seconds. This leaves us with fuses/devices 125 amps and over which typically have a Zs of <0.25 ohms. Going by ohms law 0.2 gives us 265kw or 1,150 amps with an infinite source. A 250kw rated heater being placed across any phase and earth will result in a measurable drop in output voltage on a 5% Z 166kva transformer (assume the 500kva unit is a bank of 3 166kva units). Transformer voltage regulation is excellent at unity power factor, however sharply declines with lagging power factor. Reactance begins to dominate as you go up in wire size, so where as a 1mm2 lighting circuit will be seen as almost a purely resisitive load (during a fault), a circuit over 63 amps will dedicate at least half or more of its fault current to maintaining the magnetic field around each conductor. Consider current division and open over head conductors in the fault loop and XL dominates substantially.


    Try this, play around with the slides in relation to lagging loads vs unity loads to give you an idea:


      https://voltage-disturbance.com/power-engineering/transformer-voltage-regulation/



    Lastly consider that a final circuit is Zs=Ze+(R1+R2)... part of a whole when wiring a building...  meaning sub circuits from board to board are rarely run to their maximum EFLI having to of a low enough Z to allow for the final circuits to be long enough to hit all the devices through out. 


    In summary faults will either disconnect in less than 0.1 seconds, or result in significant voltage drop through the transformer making fault point voltage to remote earth minor.
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