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Anomaly in EICR

AlanKay
Situation; I have owned and let for about 17 years a small (1 bed) flat in large converted house. Conversion was done in 1987, six years or so before I bought. The property is in England.


A Managing Agent looks after tenant's requests and has a raft of contractors on their books for everything from plumbing and electrics to carpet-fitting, decoration and gardening. MA calls us for approval before engaging their contractor on any job. They arrange regular GasSafe inspections and certificates and at our request carried out an asbestos survey (none found!).


They have just written to advise that in line with new regulation they sent their electrician to carry out an EICR on the flat. Copies of the completed EICR and a quote for remedying defects arrived with their inspection advice.


I don't know why, but I'm always a little wary of such combined "we found a dangerous fault, but don't worry we can fix it for you" quotes.


I'm quite possibly wrong here, so I'd appreciate experienced opinion.

I really am not trying to avoid works that are necessary, even if they would require my tenant to move out (in the event of a full rewire for example).

Cut to the chase.


In the quote, one of the discovered faults to be repaired is described as, "No end to end reading on ring circuit, locate fault and re-terminate".

That same message is repeated in section 7 (Observations and recommendations) of the EICR, "No end to end reading on R2 - Locate and terminate" - with a C2 classification.


Ok. An open-circuit of the cpc loop needs finding and fixing, but..


In section 16 (Schedule of circuits and test results) the values for r1, rn and r2 are written in as 0.55, 0.54 and 0.84.


Can someone explain how the 0.84 Ohms measurement was made with an open cpc loop?

(I think 0.84 Ohms is quite good for 1.5mm vs 2.5mm. With r1 and rn around 0.55 I'd have expected at least 0.9.)



Moving on from that, and now feeling unsure of the veracity of the inspector's report:-


Next old chestnut; "Old consumer unit with no RCD protection - replace". To my certain knowledge there has been no modification or addition to the flat's electrics since I bought it. Has "retrospective normalisation" now caught up with us? I do realise that there are different regulations for let properties... Another C2.


Lastly; "Excessive exposed copper within sockets, need re-terminating. Another C2.

Again, to my certain knowledge there has been no modification or addition to the flat's electrics since I bought it.



To add to the pressure, EICR sect. 6 recommends next inspection in 2 weeks.



I doubt the electrician will want to engage with me if I question the report, far less re-quote with reduced scope.

Would it be best to ask the MA to arrange another, independent, EICR?

Please be assured, I do NOT suggest simply finding an electrician who will sign off an unsafe installation. If it is unsafe, or safe but doesn't meet regs, it must be rectified.


Sorry for the long post, but I've tried to include all relevant info.
  • 0
    You are running a business, that business has expenses including repairing and upgrading the electrical installations of tenanted homes over the years you have taken an income from it.


    As the electrician for some clarification if you feel it is required, but don't be surprised if you are due to spend some money on the property.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Sparkingchip:

    You are running a business, that business has expenses including repairing and upgrading the electrical installations of tenanted homes over the years you have taken an income from it.


     


    But it's not necessarily to obligation of the wealthy man to provide an income for the artisan


    Guy's been paid to do an EICR (probably at minimum cost under pressure from the managing agent) - and has reported one credible observation (RCD protection) and a few fairly vague, unsubstantiated or possibly erroneous observations.


    Personally I'd get the MA to challenge to EICR and also arrange a quote from 3 contractors for the "remedials" - this can't be the only flat where alleged C2 non conformance have been found.


    Regards


    OMS


  • 0
    Seems this property has been managed and regular Inspections.  OMS comment on likely " low remuneration inspector/ sparky" is especially valid for rental, as there is a temptation to " make up the money" with remedials; a bit like those garages offering "free" or "half priced" MOT.


    The " 2 week" re-inspection is an open goal. Seems MA are obliged to do another Report?,

    On their part I would say they are obliged to do this gratis to you AND have a differing Inspector.
  • 0
    The new regulations require that the installation is inspected against BS7671:2018 - the 18th Edition.  Any C1 or C2 faults must be fixed.


    In that respect, saying "it complied when it was installed" doesn't work.  If the inspector thinks it's now unsafe enough to get a C2 under the 18th Edition, then it has to be fixed.
  • 0
    LOL you having a laugh, you will struggle to get one contractor to quote at the moment, never mind three.


    By all means question the agents and electrician, for something physical that can be seen I would email the landlord a photo.


    What cannot be done is emailing a photo of something that cannot be seen, I am just about to leave my desk to go to my wholesaler to pick up some materials to go and do an EICR remedial, including fault finding a neutral earth fault on a socket circuit in a TT installation with a Ze of 300 ohms which is a C1 in it's own right being a total failure of the insulation plus it playing merry hell with the 30 mA RCD and blocking it  when I try to test it, but making it trip when I test the other RCDs. I cannot really send a photo to explain that, though perhaps I could video and email a short documentary ?


    After seventeen years spending some of the income to improve an investment is hardly a big issue, it will be paid for with tenants money.
  • 0
    And there’s no way I will fault find for a fixed cost.
  • 0
    AlanKay:

    I don't know why, but I'm always a little wary of such combined "we found a dangerous fault, but don't worry we can fix it for you" quotes.

    Yes, see the remark about MOTs above, which is why I have paid the full whack to the same chap for years. I am sure that his advisories would be fails elsewhere.

    In section 16 (Schedule of circuits and test results) the values for r1, rn and r2 are written in as 0.55, 0.54 and 0.84.


    Can someone explain how the 0.84 Ohms measurement was made with an open cpc loop?

    (I think 0.84 Ohms is quite good for 1.5mm vs 2.5mm. With r1 and rn around 0.55 I'd have expected at least 0.9.)

    No, I cannot. The only way it could be open is if he has failed to put it back together properly.

    Next old chestnut; "Old consumer unit with no RCD protection - replace". To my certain knowledge there has been no modification or addition to the flat's electrics since I bought it. Has "retrospective normalisation" now caught up with us? I do realise that there are different regulations for let properties... Another C2.

    Possibly - do have a look at our extensive discussions over the past few weeks and months. The issue is that the installation must comply with BS 7671:2018 whenever it is occupied by a tenant. I would give absence of RCD protection a C3 (be it sockets, lights, cables in walls, etc.), but others would grade C2. This does seem to be a reasonable range of expert opinion.


    I had been considering handing out my card to the three or four letting agents in the high street 10 min away, but our debates have been thoroughly off-putting. I think that before long, the letting agents will get to know who issues a reliable EICR. It's the same in any business - quality sells.
  • 0
    Sparkingchip:


    After seventeen years spending some of the income to improve an investment is hardly a big issue, it will be paid for with tenants money.


    You seem a bit partial.  EICR #1, #2, or however many, and any remedial works will be paid by the landlord, from probably, quite a meagre yield on his original investment.  But certainly not by the tenant.   


  • 0
    I had been considering handing out my card to the three or four letting agents in the high street 10 min away, but our debates have been thoroughly off-putting. I think that before long, the letting agents will get to know who issues a reliable EICR. It's the same in any business - quality sells.


    The issue is the legal instrument and how it defines "electrical safety", which is not as an electrician would define it for an EICR.  The EICR process / condition codes and the regulation are at odds.  It's not, necessarily, a quality problem. 


  • 0
    Many thanks to everyone who has replied already (wish my MA was so responsive!).

    I do understand that contractors have to make a living - I was once one - and I hope I'd made clear that I'll willingly pay for regularising the installation. ...

    I'll take issue with the suggestion that buying-to-rent one tiny flat - bought as my pension - makes me some sort of property magnate.
    MA's fees, communal repair costs, mortgage repayments, voids, upgraded WC/bath/sink, carpets etc. etc. - mean it barely washes its face.

    I agree with Sparkingchip, "there’s no way I will fault find for a fixed cost." But that's exactly what's been quoted; to find and fix a discontinuity somewhere in the ring. If you're in luck you'll find it inside a back box. If not, with cables run under floorboards and fitted carpets - in a conversion where every floor/ceiling is a shared utility space between two dwellings - fixed-fee? No way!

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