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RCD failure causes shock in neighbours house

Large rural home, family members getting shocks from water pipes when water was running. Owner got a severe shock from the outside tap. Their contractor did some investigation and ruled out a fault in the installation. As the system was TNCS it then looked like a classic case of DNO lost neutral so contractor called them in. Investigation revealed a fault in a nearby farm which was on the same single-phase transformer but was TT. They duly cut off the the offending circuit which they established was supplying the barn. They removed a 45A fuse from the distribution circuit and stuck warning tape over the fuse carrier but left the fuse. Problem solved. I was called in by the home owner when the shocks returned. Unfortunately it was late yesterday afternoon and I didn’t relish the prospect. I stuck a bit of reinforcing bar in the garden and measured 187v between that and the outside tap which was connected to a copper supply pipe. I went to the farm and the old farmer kindly gave me access. He had replaced the fuse that the DNO removed as he needed light to feed his animals but forgot to remove it again. Anyway, his own contractor had apparently dismissed the DNO diagnosis. I pulled the fuse and found that the fault voltage at the house disappeared. Further investigation revealed an almost dead short between phase and earth on a circuit in the barn. The RCD had failed. Given that it was a TT system the fault current was insufficient to blow the 45A fuse. The fault voltage in the house, I speculate, was the manifestation of the voltage drop across the DNO earth electrode. 

The situation does reflect an issue in TTing installations on a TNCS system.
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  • I'm with Lyle's sketch  on this one, and for some odd reason that pits my view of what is happening against that of JP - unusual but there we go. No offence meant, but I will argue this one, as I think it is important to consider this, especially in a world where we are considering adding additional earthing , possibly better than the DNOs earthing, at the load ends to the distribution network in the DPC.

    We have a 187V potential difference between the supply neutral and the general mass of earth in the house. If every thing Electrical in the house works that suggests the  general mass of earth is rising up to 187V. I know about Hot Sites in respect of HV but not an LV fault to Earth causing a voltage rise of earth some distance away.


    We have a 187V potential difference between the supply neutral  and house CPC, relative to the general mass of earth 

    Agree and note addition in bold. CPC earth is not terra-firma earth however.

      in the house. If every thing Electrical in the house works that suggests the  general mass of earth is rising up to 187V.
    NOPE,  true earth is in the right place. Relative to terra-firma Live will be falling to about 60V and neutral and CPC are at -187 such that the L to N difference and live to  CPC difference both remain 240V or whatever.

    The only place that a step voltage will be evident is very near to the DNOs LV electrodes and again at the farm, not at the point of shock.



    -As it happens I have previously been bitten by this mechanism exactly, and so have had some time to think about it. Not on a fixed installation though. A mobile genset, not that well earthed, and a cable to a remote load - flood lights I think, but not really relevant, and the cable went over and through a hedge, and un-observed caught on barbed wire, piercing the outer and snagging one of the lives. Further along the barbed wire drooped with the rotting remains of a fence post into a very wet ditch, making a much better earth than the  half-heartedly fitted rod at the genset.  The  effect was to ground the whole 3 phase triangle by one corner, making grabbing the door handle to climb into the genset vehicle a shocking experience, luckily one that passed enough extra current to fire the genset RCD.


    regards Mike

    Edited for grammar 5/10/20
Reply
  • I'm with Lyle's sketch  on this one, and for some odd reason that pits my view of what is happening against that of JP - unusual but there we go. No offence meant, but I will argue this one, as I think it is important to consider this, especially in a world where we are considering adding additional earthing , possibly better than the DNOs earthing, at the load ends to the distribution network in the DPC.

    We have a 187V potential difference between the supply neutral and the general mass of earth in the house. If every thing Electrical in the house works that suggests the  general mass of earth is rising up to 187V. I know about Hot Sites in respect of HV but not an LV fault to Earth causing a voltage rise of earth some distance away.


    We have a 187V potential difference between the supply neutral  and house CPC, relative to the general mass of earth 

    Agree and note addition in bold. CPC earth is not terra-firma earth however.

      in the house. If every thing Electrical in the house works that suggests the  general mass of earth is rising up to 187V.
    NOPE,  true earth is in the right place. Relative to terra-firma Live will be falling to about 60V and neutral and CPC are at -187 such that the L to N difference and live to  CPC difference both remain 240V or whatever.

    The only place that a step voltage will be evident is very near to the DNOs LV electrodes and again at the farm, not at the point of shock.



    -As it happens I have previously been bitten by this mechanism exactly, and so have had some time to think about it. Not on a fixed installation though. A mobile genset, not that well earthed, and a cable to a remote load - flood lights I think, but not really relevant, and the cable went over and through a hedge, and un-observed caught on barbed wire, piercing the outer and snagging one of the lives. Further along the barbed wire drooped with the rotting remains of a fence post into a very wet ditch, making a much better earth than the  half-heartedly fitted rod at the genset.  The  effect was to ground the whole 3 phase triangle by one corner, making grabbing the door handle to climb into the genset vehicle a shocking experience, luckily one that passed enough extra current to fire the genset RCD.


    regards Mike

    Edited for grammar 5/10/20
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