This discussion is locked.
You cannot post a reply to this discussion. If you have a question start a new discussion

17th edition design given 18th edition certifcate

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Hello, I recently purchased a new build home on a small development; a rather unique situation has occurred that I thought was interesting and might interest some people here to discuss. It's still currently unresolved but progress is being made.


The house has a NICEIC BS 7671: 2018 domestic electrical installation certificate dated 5/2/20 with no departures identified; with the only comment being no water bond due to plastic pipework. I noticed that no SPD had been fitted so asked the contractor for the completed risk assessment to determine that it was not needed. Initially they did not know what I was on about and then said that no SPD was fitted due to the initial design being done in December 2018 to the 17th edition. So far so good!


However on the electrical designs I have there was a revision on 27/5/2019 and at my request I later paid for an additional £1700 of fixed LED lighting to be installed throughout on 20/11/2019. After bringing this up I was told it was still to the 17th and that "any subsequent revisions are based on the regulations in force at the time of the original design". The installation certificate includes these lighting changes as many more (20+) positions are served on the circuits, everything else seems to be as the 27/5/2019 revision design.


I then asked why a 18th edition certificate had been issued with no note of that the installation is actually to 17th design and standard and was told that they had used up all their 17th edition certificates during the grace period, that the NICEIC had advised them to use 18th edition certificates but place "n/a" on items pertaining to SPDs and that their response is to amend the existing certificate to note that the installation was carried out to the 17th edition regulations.


I can forgive that yes, even a brand new home can be delivered not to the latest regulation due to a design from a grace period (as always regulations can be updated quicker than projects) but I do not get a good feeling from the 18th edition certificate being issued on a 17th edition design and installation without any indication - certainly the other homeowners on the development may not be as keen on protecting their extra gizmos as I am!



 


Parents
  • I am still somewhat unhappy with the SPD thinking, because the test specification is far too vague, and assumes a number of parameters that are in reality undefined. The place for protection is ideally next to or within the device to be protected. The fundamental problem is that people keep saying “clamped to some voltage”. This is fundamentally untrue unless the SPD has zero impedance when operating, and also there are no “transmission line” effects mentioned by Mike above. If the pulse under consideration strikes a short circuit (the SPD) in RF terms it is reflected not removed, and thus may damage something else!

    As real VDRs have a significant series resistance when conducting, the remaining pulse amplitude depends on the original pulse energy, some of which is dissipated and some reflected. A pulse still continues on the original circuit, although the amplitude may be reduced. There are so many unknowns in this description that what actually happens is undefined, although in the ultimate case is probably some improvement in damage levels. To work better it is necessary that the pulse source impedance is defined, and for in-product protection, this is usually some series inductance in the supply lead. The VDR can then be chosen to have a suitable clamping voltage and current (operating series resistance) to reduce the pulse of some width to a known potential, even if the supply impedance is zero, and even less if it is significant.

    From the above one can see that the standard SPDs in BS7671 may help in some circumstances, but appliances also have specifications for resistance (sic) to spike damage, although cheap stuff usually ignores these. It is not worth spending £1 to protect a led light bulb whose manufacturing cost is 50p.

    There are ways to protect or remove spikes at a known voltage but these also have some problems, related to the possible pulse energy to be clamped. Again controlling the supply impedance is essential, and excess pulse energy may cause thermal failure. They are also much more expensive than the simple VDR (voltage dependant resistor) types, using power electronics.

Reply
  • I am still somewhat unhappy with the SPD thinking, because the test specification is far too vague, and assumes a number of parameters that are in reality undefined. The place for protection is ideally next to or within the device to be protected. The fundamental problem is that people keep saying “clamped to some voltage”. This is fundamentally untrue unless the SPD has zero impedance when operating, and also there are no “transmission line” effects mentioned by Mike above. If the pulse under consideration strikes a short circuit (the SPD) in RF terms it is reflected not removed, and thus may damage something else!

    As real VDRs have a significant series resistance when conducting, the remaining pulse amplitude depends on the original pulse energy, some of which is dissipated and some reflected. A pulse still continues on the original circuit, although the amplitude may be reduced. There are so many unknowns in this description that what actually happens is undefined, although in the ultimate case is probably some improvement in damage levels. To work better it is necessary that the pulse source impedance is defined, and for in-product protection, this is usually some series inductance in the supply lead. The VDR can then be chosen to have a suitable clamping voltage and current (operating series resistance) to reduce the pulse of some width to a known potential, even if the supply impedance is zero, and even less if it is significant.

    From the above one can see that the standard SPDs in BS7671 may help in some circumstances, but appliances also have specifications for resistance (sic) to spike damage, although cheap stuff usually ignores these. It is not worth spending £1 to protect a led light bulb whose manufacturing cost is 50p.

    There are ways to protect or remove spikes at a known voltage but these also have some problems, related to the possible pulse energy to be clamped. Again controlling the supply impedance is essential, and excess pulse energy may cause thermal failure. They are also much more expensive than the simple VDR (voltage dependant resistor) types, using power electronics.

Children
No Data